Guide Requirements

Question:

> To the extent that your advocacy of requiring guides for non-residents is > confined to the activity of hunting, your position suffers the same > logical inconsistency as the current statutes.  Note that the "guide > requirement" statutes do NOT extend to such activities as fishing, hiking, > skiing, photography, etc.; but ONLY to HUNTING.  How is a particular > wilderness location at a particular time so radically different for a > hunter than for a fisher, a hiker, a skier, or a photographer?

John, While you think you are being logical, and you might be to an extent, you are missing two important points: 1       Hunting (and driving a car) is not a "right".  It is a privilege. It is also up to an individual state to decide who, how, when and where this privilege is made available.  If you want to take your logic one step further, you are in effect saying that all states should have the same regs (and rights) and therefore the only monitor of a "national" policy could be a centralized group (the feds).  Say goodbye to hunting. Then you can start saying goodbye to the other activities you listed above one at a time.  Guaranteed, they will screw it up. 2       Having said the above, the fact that Alaska has the right to tell you what your privileges are, they also have the right to protect their resources the way they want.  If you want the privileges to hunt in Alaska as an Alaskan, move there.  How do you know that in two years Alaska won’t decide that all Grizzly Bear hunts require a guide, whether you are a resident or not… I posted this sentiment privately to Jim and after reading this last note from you, could not resist adding both my pennies.  Now I’m mentally bankrupt! – Jeff Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Wyoming, >         and Idaho) >My read on the requirement for non-resident hunters to have guides is >somewhat different.  I see it as irrelevant as far as hunting the game >goes, but very important as far as throwing some greenhorn city slicker >out in conditions where the weather will kill him if the critters don’t. >Not to say that in state residents are perfect, but they do have an >inside track on familiarity with weather and weather potential. >I’ve seen in-state residents do stupid stuff … the only difference is >they do it about a tenth as often. >I support requirements for non-residents to have guides, regardless of >the state.  Even with spike-camp setups, there is SOMEONE aware of where >the hunter is keeping an eye on conditions. >Tom

To the extent that your advocacy of requiring guides for non-residents is confined to the activity of hunting, your position suffers the same logical inconsistency as the current statutes.  Note that the "guide requirement" statutes do NOT extend to such activities as fishing, hiking, skiing, photography, etc.; but ONLY to HUNTING.  How is a particular wilderness location at a particular time so radically different for a hunter than for a fisher, a hiker, a skier, or a photographer?       -jc- — Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

>I think you’re missing Laszlo’s point:  The "guide requirement" is applied

ONLY to NON-resident HUNTERS; an Alaska resident who has never hunted >before, and who has never ventured "out of town" before, is "qualified" by

virtue of nothing more than residency and the purchase of the appropriate >hunting license to partake of the SAME hunt for the SAME species WITHOUT

being REQUIRED to hire a guide.  "REQUIRED" seems to be the key word in >Laszlo’s objection.

I am not missing his point at all.  I addressed it exactly. >This point is not in dispute.  The REQUIREMENT to "subsidize" guides being

imposed ONLY on NON-resident HUNTERS is the point in dispute. Yes and I addressed this.  Do I need to repeat it?  OK.  The biggest reason it will not be applied to Alaskans is that it would be politically impossible to do it. >My "take" is that Laszlo wants only to be ALLOWED TO CHOOSE FOR HIMSELF

whether to hire a guide or outfitter, regardless which species he wants to >hunt and where he wants to hunt it.

What Laszlo wants is to hunt grizzly bears cheaply.  I would like to do this too.  It isn’t going to happen.  It doesn’t matter whether a guide is required or not.  Even if they should magically someday dropped the guide requirement you are not going to be able fly up to Alaska and put down a couple hundred dollars to and go shoot a brown bear.  Bears are too valuable to give them away.  It is a fact.  It may not seem fair but that is the way it is.  The rest of the country shot their  grizzly bears to extinction or near extinction.  Alaska has managed their bear population well.  The last thing Alaskans like to hear is someone from the lower 48 telling them how to manage grizzly bears!  This goes for AR types and hunters.  Alaskan grizzly/brown bear populations are thriving.  Why should they change the way the manage them?  To make it cheaper or more fair for someone that comes from a state to wiped out their own bear population to come up and shoot one of Alaska’s bears?  It isn’t going to happen.  Alaska saved their bear population.  They deserve to make the rules how they see fit.  If they want to save them all for themselves they can do that too.  Maybe you would liek that better.  After all many states have certain species that only residents can hunt.  Or are you agains this too? >I think Laszlo has argued quite convincingly that the "guide requirement"

laws as written inure primarily to the economic benefit of the guides, and >not to the game species.  The non-resident (and resident, for that matter)

hunter must pay the appropriate license fee for his quarry, regardless >whether he additionally pays a guide’s fees.  The difference is that the

resident hunter is ALLOWED TO CHOOSE whether to additionally pay guide >fees; the non-resident hunter is NOT allowed to choose but rather is

REQUIRED BY LAW to additionally pay guide fees.  The competence or >incompetence of the respective hunters is not considered in imposing the

requirement. I am very glad you found Laszlo so convincing.  Tell me, do you have a planned Alaska hunt that you are going to cancel now?  That is Laszlo’s idea.  We are all supposed to boycott Alaska to put pressure on the state to stop giving welfare to the guides.  So are you?  I am meeting tomorrow to plan my next Alaskan hunt. >I cannot deny that some INDIRECT benefit might inure to the welfare of the

animals from guide fees, but I argue that the PRIMARY source of economic >benefit for the animals derives from the payment of the hunting license

fees; fees that must be paid by ALL hunters regardless whether additional >fees are paid to guides.  Accordingly, I agree with Laszlo that the

PRIMARY beneficiaries of the "guide requirement" laws are the guides >themselves.

You seem to have totally missed my argument.  The money paid in fees where bears are nothing compared with the will of the people to allow large predators to exist in their back yards.  People put up with these bears because they see them as something useful.  Part of that usefulness is the money derived from out of staters and people from other countries coming to hunt them.  (When I lived in Alaska a surprising number of bear hunter were German).  These people hire them or someone they know.  The economic impact would be very much lessened if the guide requirement was lifted unless of course the tag cost say $10,000 and that money was distributed to the people living in the area.  Would you be happier paying $10k to the state of Alaska? >It could very well be true that the "average Alaskan [resident] hunter"

has never hunted specifically for grizzly bears; thus has never attempted >to judge one’s size and sex.  Yet he is "qualified" by virtue of nothing

more than Alaska residency to make that judgement without the COMPULSORY >assistance of a [paid] guide?  I cannot find the logic that leads to such

a conclusion; yet the "guide requirement" laws seem to reach exactly that >conclusion, among others.

It is called politics.  I already answered that.  And the average Alaskan hunter may have never hunted for grizzlies, but the average Alaskan hunter has seen many grizzlies.  You get a fair idea of what a large bear looks like after you have seen them over a number of years.  Some guy coming from NYC that has never seen a grizzly is going to go out and pick a nice old boar and shoot him right?  Get real!  More than likely the guy would just shoot the first bear he saw.  If you are used to looking a black bears all coastal brown bears look giant. If I were an Alaskan and the guide requirement were lifted for out of state hunters on brown bear, I would be at the council meeting petitioning for resident only hunting of bears.  I am sure that is what would happen.  You are never going to hunt a grizzly bear on the cheap again.  Those days are over. Now you have tow choices.  Save your money or don’t hunt one.  Well there is another choice.  Move to Alaska.  There is nothing that prevents any American from moving there. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

> I’ve  been  told (by  several  Alaskans)  that  it’s  there  because  of the > outfitter  lobby,  nothing else.  The ADF&G doesn’t even support it, but the > legislature has bowed to the outfitter lobby pressure.

Want to venture a guess on how many legislators are registered guides? Enough that you won’t get any sympathy from that "esteemed body." And besides, we have enough problems to worry about with the Feds and the subsistence issue.  I’m afraid the guide regs which you find so objectionable just aren’t a priority to most Alaskans right now. Marty Shurr North Pole, Alaska Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

Try taking it up in Court.. Maybe you’ll get the law overturned as illegal.. Though I doubt it.. Good Luck.. I recommend fighting for something that is truly worthwhile to you.. If you truly believe in this matter.. take it to court or to the Alaskan people.. Kevin Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

>Okay, I can afford an expensive  guided  hunt, that’s not the problem.  I’ve >got mine, so screw  everyone else, and let me keep feeding the welfare funds >to the outfitters.  Sounds like you approve of that  scenario….the  status

quo. >: So we will just have to differ on this one. >I guess so.  Thanks for the discussion.

Well I would like to end this discussion since it seems to being going nowhere.  However I hate to leave it on the note that I am in favor of "screwing everyone else" since I can afford a guide.  You seem to think my view of this issue is based entirely on selfish motivations.   At first you were convinced that I had a relative in Alaska and I could hunt there without a guide so therefore I supported guide requirements for everyone else.  I explained that this wasn’t at all the case.  I would need a guide just like anyone else to hunt grizzly bear there.  So now you have come to conclusion that my position is based on "screwing everyone else" that doesn’t have as much money as me. What I keep trying to say is that we see the situation different .  Maybe the reason is because I worked in Alaska for a number of years whereas you have gone there maybe a few weeks as a tourist/hunter.  Your view is that of only a visiting sport hunter.  You tend to think of the situation only in terms of visiting nonresident hunters such as yourself.  My experience has given me another view of the situation.  Is mine more "right" than yours?  Well I think so.  You don’t.  But I assure you my view has nothing to do with either be able to hunt in Alaska because of relatives or being able to hunt there because money is no object. While I understand the desire of nonresident hunters to hunt cheaply in Alaska, I also understand the needs of the locals to make a living.  And a living is all they make out of guiding.  I don’t believe I have ever met a guide that got rich guiding clients in Alaska.  There are much more lucrative callings in Alaska than guiding.  These guys are not making a fortune doing this. I also stated right from the beginning that while you may have a good point on guide requirement in WY, Alaska is different.  Different in many ways.  Not just the climate, but the whole way of life for rural people there.  Hunting and fishing is more than a past time for many.  It is how they make their living. And yes, as I have stated before giving wildlife economic value does contribute to conservation if it is done correctly.  The state of the Alaskan wildlife resource indicates that they are doing something right. I have said many times that I would love not to have the guide requirement too.  However I respect the decisions made by ADF&G with input of the hunters of Alaska.  I believe your calls for boycotts and lawsuits is absolutely counter productive.  Especially so when you put it in the context of the guide requirement being based on a welfare system for greedy guides. We, as hunters, have plenty of enemies without creating divisions among our ranks based on who can afford what.  Besides I really don’t think standing up for the rights of nonresident hunters to hunt grizzly bears in Alaska without a guide is exactly standing up for the rights of the downtrodden.  The three animal that require a guide are trophy animals that most hunters are never going to hunt anyway.  Not because of the guide requirement, but because they are expensive with or without a guide.  Anyone that can afford to fly up to Alaska and hunt at all isn’t exactly poor.  Even an air drop caribou hunt is going to cost somewhere between $1500 and $2200 depending on from where in the US the nonresident hunter is flying from and what he wants when he gets to Alaska.  And a air taxi IS a guide service.  Anyone that thinks that they are going to fly up to Alaska for the first time and shoot a caribou without any guidance is in for a rude awakening.  There are plenty of caribou, but you still have to know where to go.  That is what you pay the air taxi to do. Take you to the caribou.  They tell you where to go, you don’t tell them. That is guiding.  No they don’t butcher your animal for you, and tell you which one to shoot.  But they do take you to the animals. Like I said before talking about suing or boycotting Alaska gets us nowhere. I really can’t understand talk about boycotts and lawsuits against Alaska while at the same time planning a semi-guided hunt to Alaska.  If you are serious about changing the guide requirement, ADG&G meetings are open to the public, even nonresidents.  An approach of speaking your concerns and objections at the proper format seems a much more productive way to deal with this than the hostile approach. I just wonder how many hunters would pay all it takes to get say a Kodiak brown bear tag, not to mention the luck of drawing one, and not get a guide. I have seen more coastal grizzlies than I can count and I don’t consider myself capable of judging a trophy animal.  And having eaten coastal grizzly bears, I can say that anyone that hunts them for anything but trophies either is a very indiscriminate eater or very hungry. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

:I have never had a problem paying an out of state lic fee and never :will….only because i believe that it is my duty as an active citicen in this :sport to support it….Regardless of the cost and inconvience. I respect the :rules of other states….and only encourage potential hunters of my great :state to do the same…. I have no problem with  non-resident  fees either, but that’s not the issue. theissue is that I HAVE TO USE A GUIDE, which makes the hunt many times more expensive. : We are the users….therefore we need to be the providers and supporters….. I wonder if you’d  feel the same way if ALL states  had guide  requirements, and you had to hire a guide to hunt anywhere but Alaska. Laszlo         Member: Wildlife Legislation Fund of America                 Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society                 National Rifle Association                 Colorado Bowhunters Association                 Ft. Collins Archery Association      Let us prey…..      PETA– People for the Eating of Tasty Animals The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of Hewlett-Packard Company : Glen : Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: :         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ : To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

Jim… I read your long and interesting letter…….and was plesasently supportive.. I was born and raised in Alaska and have held an assistant guide lic. for 4 years now….i will soon study for my outfitters lic…probably in the next three years. As a guide i have been questioned by many why it is so exspensive to hunt certain species up home, and have spent many hours explaining our (the majority of guides) secluded lifestyle. although sometimes the rules play hard against the better interests of some individuals…. i have always been very supportive of our system and the folks behind them. I aggree that ADF&G has a very sound program…..and am fully supportive of there system However, in some cases….there reasoning is difficult to understand and comprehend….however….there must be a good reason…..and that is where trust comes into play. One thing that i have learned over the past several years….is that by supporting activities that one engages in, on a regular basis….not only secures our right to that resource….but also makes me proud to be giving back a little even if nothing was taken….only because…..this particular sport is a privialge ……not a right, not to mention Self supported I have never had a problem paying an out of state lic fee and never will…..only because i believe that it is my duty as an active citicen in this sport to support it…..Regardless of the cost and inconvience. I respect the rules of other states…..and only encourage potential hunters of my great state to do the same…. I maybe wrong….but i got the impression that you felt the same way….and i wanted to commend you, for so diligently expressing yourself in your letter. We are the users….therefore we need to be the providers and supporters….. best regards….. Glen Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

|> Not wanting to go over this whole thing again I will just pick one statement |> that I believe epitomizes our difference in attitude towards hunting. |> |> |> >: Either that or issue few if any tags to nonresidents. |> |> >I’d actually  prefer that myself.  That’s the way most states  manage  their |> game if numbers aren’t sufficient to allow unlimited hunting.  It makes more |> >sense to me that subsidizing an industry. |> |> |> Well I guess that about sums up our differences.  I don’t think we will ever |> see eye to eye on this.  I can not understand why anyone would prefer not to |> hunt at animal at all to having the ability to hunt said animal if only he |> pays.  What you would prefer would mean no ability to ever hunt some animals |> for nonresidents.  I just cannot see how that is a preferable alternative.  I |> will admit that it sounds more "fair".  But it is that kind of fair that  makes |> certain that no one has anything. |> |> You may well consider my attitude toward hunting because of my stance on this |> issue "sh*tty".  I find yours perplexing to say the least.  I simply can’t |> understand how not being able to hunt at all is better than having to pay  what |> you consider too much.  I will admit that there is some sense of "justice" in |> your proposal.  But it is the kind of justice I really don’t like. I have read this thread with much interest. And although I do have an opinion (like who doesn’t!), it isn’t quite as feverent as Jim’s and Laszlo’s. I tend to disagree with guiding requirements. As far as safety goes, government is not in the buisness (or at least shouldn’t be) of protecting me from myself. If I do something stupid and get myself killed, so be it. A rather harsh attitude I admit, but one I hold nontheless. Requiring me to hire a guide so I don’t kill myself is a poor excuse of a law IMO. As far as game management, there are other ways to accomplish limited pressure other than requiring a guide or exorbantly priced tags. As a matter of principle, I (like I think most Americans) like the ability to choose. Requirements ought to be a last resort – and as far as I can tell, guide requirements are not a last resort and does smack of unnecessary subsidy. "Fair", as you mentioned above, is important to me. I would think that "fairness" is important to a lot of people. This is the primary reason I tend to like a reasonably priced lottery system. The state has the right to collect enough money to manage the resource. This should be the determining factor in setting the tag price. X tags issued at Y dollars each. Now IMO monetary restraints above and beyond the $Y is "unfair". When it comes to a consumptive resource, after satisfying the $Y tag amount (needed to manage the resource) why should someone with more money have greater assess to that resource than someone with less money? I would hate to see hunting move toward an upper class pursuit. And implementing a management plan where only the wealthy can participate is not helping hunting in general. Jim also mentioned determination of trophy quality as another "need" for a guide. Well here is a nebulous point that is hard to address, but I can ask a few question. Is taking trophy animals a game management priority? If so why isn’t there a minimum size requirement? Is there some sort of guidelines that could be issued to non-guided first-timers? Alas, this may be the best agrument for a guide – at least IMO! As far as guides go, I have nothing against guides and as someone mentioned earlier, I envy and respect their way of life. I have a couple of out-of-state hunts that I intend on going on in the next few years and will *choose* to hire a guide service. But on the hunts I have in mind, its conforting to know that if I feel that I have learned enough on my first time out with the guide, that I can return and free-lance at my discretion. Food for thought for those of you (like myself until this post) who are lurking! TTNF!!! —  NSWCDD Dahlgren, VA           My views and opinions are my own! We don’t understand the software or the hardware but we can *SEE* the blinking lights! Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

: I read with interest the banter back and forth on Guide requirements for : Grizzly Bears.  Some day I will get to hunt these fine majestic animals, : and if I have to hire a guide to do so I will.  I dont think after : having seen grizzlies withen 10 feet in Alaska, I will ever hunt one : without a guide.  A wounded Grizzly would scare me to death and probably : incapacitate my shooting ability, where as a confident Guide would : probably remain calm and cool.. So the guide requirement suits your just fine, because you’d use one anyway. What I object to is the  REQUIREMENT  to hire one….by law.  I might decide that I need one  anyway,  for the  same  reason,  but at least  without  the requirement I’d have a *choice*. Laszlo         Member: Wildlife Legislation Fund of America                 Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society                 National Rifle Association                 Colorado Bowhunters Association                 Ft. Collins Archery Association      Let us prey…..      PETA– People for the Eating of Tasty Animals The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of Hewlett-Packard Company : Food for thought.. Just my humble opinion : Kevin C. Paulson : P.S. I have to support guides, they are living a life : I truly respect and admire..and wish for.. : Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: :         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ : To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

: Not wanting to go over this whole thing again I will just pick one statement : that I believe epitomizes our difference in attitude towards hunting. : >: Either that or issue few if any tags to nonresidents. : >I’d actually  prefer that myself.  That’s the way most states  manage  their : game if numbers aren’t sufficient to allow unlimited hunting.  It makes more : >sense to me that subsidizing an industry. : Well I guess that about sums up our differences.  I don’t think we will ever : see eye to eye on this.  I can not understand why anyone would prefer not to : hunt at animal at all to having the ability to hunt said animal if only he : pays.  What you would prefer would mean no ability to ever hunt some animals : for nonresidents.  I just cannot see how that is a preferable alternative. Your  assumption is that if they  eliminated the guide  requirement,  they’d have to  eliminate or severly  restrict  non-resident  licenses.  That’s not necessarily the case….if they are currently issuing non-resident licenses, why would they HAVE TO  eliminate  them?  Do you know how many  non-resident licenses  they  currently  seel for Brown Bears, Dall Sheep, and Goats?  Why not just issue the same number  through a lottery,  and not require a guide? The game  management  issue is then not a problem.  There would be the same, or fewer, animals harvested, but at least if I drew I’d have the *choice* of hiring a guide or trying it on my own.  Set clear  laws like  degree of curl on sheep, bear sex, etc., and punish those who break them. I understand all your arguments, I just don’t agree with them.  I don’t feel that  hunting  should  become a "rich man’s  sport".  You have made some big assumptions  that may not be true.  Non-resident  licneses  don’t HAVE to be eliminated.  FORCING me to buy the  services of any  business is wrong, IMO. That’s the philosophical problem I have with guide requirements. Take this for example:  Let’s say you live outside Colorado, but you want to take a vacation here to see the beautiful  Rockies.  Let’s say that Colorado feels that  driving your car here would be unsafe, and they don’t think your car is worthy of being on our roads.  So, they  REQUIRE you to drop your car at the state line and rent one from one of the car rental companies, at say, $5000 per week….no choice.  Residents can drive around all over with their own cars at a fraction of the cost.  The rental car  companies  lobbied  for this law, and the residents  also like it because they feel it will keep the crowds offf the highways and  minimize  wear and tear.  If you want to visit Colorado,   you   have  to   comply.  Now  only   the   "rich"   can   visit Colorado…..how  do  you  suppose  that  would  that  come  across?  That’s basically what guide requirements do. : will admit that it sounds more "fair".  But it is that kind of fair that makes : certain that no one has anything. That’s your BIG assumption. : You may well consider my attitude toward hunting because of my stance on this : issue "sh*tty". I’m sorry I phrased  it that way, and than you for  keeping  alevel  head in your  response.  I guess I just don’t agree with  regulating  hunting by the price to participate.  Nobody should be *required* to patronize a particular industry.  It’s a philosophical position to me. : I find yours perplexing to say the least.  I simply can’t : understand how not being able to hunt at all is better than having to pay what : you consider too much.  I will admit that there is some sense of "justice" in : your proposal.  But it is the kind of justice I really don’t like. Okay, I can afford an expensive  guided  hunt, that’s not the problem.  I’ve got mine, so screw  everyone else, and let me keep feeding the welfare funds to the outfitters.  Sounds like you approve of that  scenario….the  status quo. : So we will just have to differ on this one. I guess so.  Thanks for the discussion. Laszlo         Member: Wildlife Legislation Fund of America                 Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society                 National Rifle Association                 Colorado Bowhunters Association                 Ft. Collins Archery Association      Let us prey…..      PETA– People for the Eating of Tasty Animals The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of Hewlett-Packard Company Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

Not wanting to go over this whole thing again I will just pick one statement that I believe epitomizes our difference in attitude towards hunting. >: Either that or issue few if any tags to nonresidents. >I’d actually  prefer that myself.  That’s the way most states  manage  their

game if numbers aren’t sufficient to allow unlimited hunting.  It makes more >sense to me that subsidizing an industry.

Well I guess that about sums up our differences.  I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on this.  I can not understand why anyone would prefer not to hunt at animal at all to having the ability to hunt said animal if only he pays.  What you would prefer would mean no ability to ever hunt some animals for nonresidents.  I just cannot see how that is a preferable alternative.  I will admit that it sounds more "fair".  But it is that kind of fair that makes certain that no one has anything. You may well consider my attitude toward hunting because of my stance on this issue "sh*tty".  I find yours perplexing to say the least.  I simply can’t understand how not being able to hunt at all is better than having to pay what you consider too much.  I will admit that there is some sense of "justice" in your proposal.  But it is the kind of justice I really don’t like. So we will just have to differ on this one. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

: How getting rid of the guide requirement is not going to lower your cost for a : grizzly bear hunt is that the state will simply raise the price of the tag to : nonresidents. That’s fine if they raise the cost to recover  what taxes they lost from the guide.  Why should they raisde it any highrer?  Oh, I  know….because  they *can*.  I don’t agree with that philosophy. : Either that or issue few if any tags to nonresidents. I’d actually  prefer that myself.  That’s the way most states  manage  their game if numbers aren’t sufficient to allow unlimited hunting.  It makes more sense to me that subsidizing an industry. : explained this before.  Now I see someone has posted how WY is thinking of : charging $17,500 for a grizzly tag. And probably requiring a gude to boot  ;-) : From the WY web site: (xvi)   Nonresident grizzly bear license; one  (1) : grizzly bear 17,500.00 Wyoming has much fewer bears than Alaska.  I personally see no justification in doing  this.  Issuing  liceses at a  reasonable  cost thru a lottery is a much more reasonable solution, IMO. : Guide requirements are game management practices.  It limits the number of : people to those that really want to hunt the animal, i.e., those that are : willing to pay the price. So I suppose  everything ought to be structured that way.  How about raising the price of a driver’s  license to $20K so that we can be sure that  anyone who wants one REALLY WANTS TO DRIVE?  On top of that, we should  require you to rent a car from Hertz. : I am guessing what you call an unguided hunt is an air drop hunt.  Well I am : doing that too.  But I would hardly brag about it being unguided.  It isn’t as : if I am going up there doing all the scouting myself.  The pilots know where : the caribou/moose are and drop the hunter off in the area.  They are in effect : guides and in fact some are guides and operate drop hunts and fully guided : hunts. If this is really "guided", then why won’t they let me do it for any species?  It is quite a bit different than going on an unguided hunt in many : places in the lower 48.  Closer to a pack horse drop camp but much cheaper. : That is what is great about Alaska.  Good hunting cheap.  I find it difficult : to complain about the situation there. My  caribou  hunt is going to cost  about  $1800 per  person….not  exactly "cheap",  but  affordable,  unlike the  $10,000-15,000  Alaska sheep or bear hunt. : If everyone in the USA decided to : boycott Alaska (which I think is impossible) German hunters and other foreign : hunters would simply take their place. I’d bet the state would see an immediate  impact.  Why would more Germans go simply because there are less Americans?  They are free to go there now…as long as they pay the guide fees required of them for all species. : I would say at least half the people I met that were out : of state bear hunters were not at all rich.  They just saved for this once in : a lifetime hunt.  I think that is how it should be. Then  limiting  non-resident  hunters in  Colorado  fits  right in with your beliefs, I take it.  Or, maybe we ought to raise the license fee for elk to, say, $1500 for a non-resident.  Make it a once-in-a-lifetime  hunt….I like that.  Non-residents  complained when we proposed to raise it to the same as neighboring states!! : I would not mind shooting a grizzly bear. : But I don’t want one bad enough to pay that kind of money.  I am simply too : cheap, at least that is how I feel at the moment. I really  don’t  want a brown  bear  that bad  either.  However,  the  guide requirement  virtually  guarantees  that  I’ll  never  be able to get a Dall sheep….just too damned expensive.  Without the guide  requirement, I could afford to try it, even if I wasn’t  succesful.  It still  wouldn’t be cheap, but at least I could do it on my own.  It means more to me that way. : >Maybe, if the Alaskans are that selfish.  Maybe  Colorado  should just allow : residents to hunt elk, and to hell with you non-residents….would that make : >you happy? : I really doubt that Alaskans would care. I didn’t say Alaskans, I said non-residents. :  Besides Alaska allows nonresidents : to hunt all but three animals without a guide. : My attitude about hunting has nothing to do with any advantage I have.   I : disagree with you.   It doesn’t mean I have a "sh*tty" attitude toward : hunting.  Just a different one than you. My problem  with your  attitude is that you seem to agree with the policy of controlling hunting pressure by controlling price.  If you support that, one day only the truly rich will be able to afford to hunt.  I’m sure the anti’s would love that. : At least toward ADF&G anyway.  I : think ADF&G does a fairly good job managing the resources of Alaska.  To you : agreeing with their management policy is a "sh*tty" attitude. I seriously doubt the guide requirements come from the ADF&G as much as from the guides and  outfitters.  The ADF&G  doesn’t  make these laws, the Alaska legislature  does.  I  have  discussed  this  issue  with  an  Alaska  State Biologist, and he also disagrees with the guide  requirement.  I’m sure he’s not the only one.  BTW, I think the ADF&G  does a great job  managing  their game in all other respects. : I would ask readers : to put themselves in the shoes of Alaskans for a moment.  If you lived there : would you want nonresidents to be able to come up and hunt very unique and : rare animals at little cost?  I doubt it.  It is the same everywhere where : states have a limited game resource that is much in demand.  They limit : nonresident hunters in some manner.  Either by lottery or monetarily. I agree with the lottery method, not the monetary  method.  Pricing licenses to limit  hunting is one thing,  subsidizing  the  guides is  another  thing entirely. : If Alaskans want free access to their game by nonresidents they will call for : it.  ADF&G is not in the hands of the guides.  There is a guide requirement : because most Alaskan hunters want it. I’ve  been  told (by  several  Alaskans)  that  it’s  there  because  of the outfitter  lobby,  nothing else.  The ADF&G doesn’t even support it, but the legislature has bowed to the outfitter lobby pressure. : way it is when you have a limited desirable resource.  Creating animosity over : the issue by calling for boycotts and claiming that guides are collecting : welfare from the state accomplishes nothing. It worked on New  Mexico.  I think  Alaska and Wyoming  should be next.  The outfitting  industry in those states is protected  and  guaranteed  by state law.  I also oppose any  outfitter  preferences  for licenses and will fight against them in Colorado to make sure YOU have a chance to hunt here without a guide. Laszlo         Member: Wildlife Legislation Fund of America                 Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society                 National Rifle Association                 Colorado Bowhunters Association                 Ft. Collins Archery Association      Let us prey…..      PETA– People for the Eating of Tasty Animals The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of Hewlett-Packard Company : Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: :         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ : To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

I read with interest the banter back and forth on Guide requirements for Grizzly Bears.  Some day I will get to hunt these fine majestic animals, and if I have to hire a guide to do so I will.  I dont think after having seen grizzlies withen 10 feet in Alaska, I will ever hunt one without a guide.  A wounded Grizzly would scare me to death and probably incapacitate my shooting ability, where as a confident Guide would probably remain calm and cool.. Food for thought.. Just my humble opinion Kevin C. Paulson P.S. I have to support guides, they are living a life I truly respect and admire..and wish for.. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

For God’s sake Laz, back off Jim!!  When was the last time you were air-dropped in unknown woodlands and socked with an early season blizzard that kept your bush-pilot from landing for five days.  It happened to a friend of mine on a Dall sheep hunt in Alaska.  Now, Steve is a trained Air Force flier and well versed in survival, but others in the group would have had a tougher go of it if it weren’t for their knowledgable guide. In addition to providing a very worthwhile and honest sub-economy to the hunting and fishing industry, the guide requirement that exists in many of the US’s wilderness states (MT, WY, AK, etc.) exists to prevent Wall Street, flannel-suited, Holland & Holland double rifle buyin’ dumbasses from becoming frozen chunks of meat that Search and Rescue needs to pluck off a mountaintop.  I have yet to hear of anyone on a big game hunt that said "my guide didn’t know a bull moose from Bullwinkle," or "we didn’t even see any sheep".  There’s a reason that these guys are guides, it’s not because they don’t know how to predict good horses or can’t assemble a Ford Explorer.  Gad, how can you be so pompous and flame Jim like that unless you are a licensed guide yourself? Sorry to inform you that there is no more "wild, wild West", the buffalo herds don’t roam the plains and the flocks of ducks don’t block out the sun anymore. There just isn’t enough game to go around to everyone, so it costs money to play.  Sorry to burst your bubble.  If the ante is too steep, well I guess you better go find a cheaper game — the nickle slots are near the bathrooms.  If you want to play Baccarat with James Bond in Monte Carlo, it’s gonna cost you a few bucks and you know what????   You’ve gotta tip the cocktail waitress in order to keep those free Budweisers coming. My 2 cents, Joseph Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

>Lemme see….  if I didn’t have to hire a guide, I could hunt  grizzlies for

a fraction of what it costs with one.  So if a guide isn’t required, and you >eliminate that cost, how is this NOT going to happen???

How getting rid of the guide requirement is not going to lower your cost for a grizzly bear hunt is that the state will simply raise the price of the tag to nonresidents.  Either that or issue few if any tags to nonresidents.  The bears belong to the state of Alaska, they can do what they want with them.  I explained this before.  Now I see someone has posted how WY is thinking of charging $17,500 for a grizzly tag. From the WY web site: (xvi)   Nonresident grizzly bear license; one  (1) grizzly bear 17,500.00 Makes Alaska sound like a good deal. >Nobody is telling them how to manage them.  I just don’t feel we should have

to  hire  a  guide   to  hunt   them.  Guide   requirements   aren’t   "game >management"….they’re *welfare* for a particular industry.

Guide requirements are game management practices.  It limits the number of people to those that really want to hunt the animal, i.e., those that are willing to pay the price.  And guides make certain that the novice hunter (novice at this particular species – there aren’t many "expert" grizzly hunter nowadays) shoots a mature animal. >They can still manage them, by limiting the licenses.

Yes they can.  But then there is not the economic benefit obtained from the animals unless they charge a fortune for the tags like WY is thinking of doing.  Then we are right back to your same complaint.  Plus there is not the selective hunting of old trophy animals that a guide assures. >No  problem  with  that.  Colorado  has  some  licenses  only  available  to

residents,  but all licenses  that *are*  available to  residents  allow the >hunter to go guided or unguided.  That’s fair.

Well I for one would rather have the opportunity to hunt the animal at some price than not to be able to hunt it at all.  Your idea of fair would be for Alaska to make Brown and grizzly bear resident only animals then?  No thanks! Even if I never hunt them I would like the opportunity to do so.  Your logic sounds way too much like that of the those that think fair is making everyone equally poor. >Hey Jimmy, I already have an Alaska hunt  (UNGUIDED)  planned for this fall.

I’m not going to boycott  them all by myself,  but if some  organized  group >starts a boycott  to end these  guide  requirements,  I WILL JOIN THEM if it

looks like they  could be  successful.  Furthermore,  I plan to contact  the >WLFA to see if they’re  interested in initiating a legal  challenge  against

these guide  requirements…if they are, I’ll . >They got NM to back down, why not  Wyoming and Alaska, the only  states with

any sort of guide requirements that I’m aware of. I am guessing what you call an unguided hunt is an air drop hunt.  Well I am doing that too.  But I would hardly brag about it being unguided.  It isn’t as if I am going up there doing all the scouting myself.  The pilots know where the caribou/moose are and drop the hunter off in the area.  They are in effect guides and in fact some are guides and operate drop hunts and fully guided hunts. It is quite a bit different than going on an unguided hunt in many places in the lower 48.  Closer to a pack horse drop camp but much cheaper. That is what is great about Alaska.  Good hunting cheap.  I find it difficult to complain about the situation there.  Maybe you will find some organization that will support your cause, but I doubt it. >Aha!!  Now we see why Jim likes the guide  requirements.  He probably  isn’t

subjected to them because he has a relative still living there or something. No I don’t have any ‘in’ to Alaska hunting.  If I were to chose to hunt brown bear in Alaska I would have to hire a guide just like you.  Because I worked in Alaska for a number of years you jump to that conclusion!?  People from here in Washington State have a close connection to Alaska.  That doesn’t mean we get favorable treatment.  (If anything worse treatment – but mostly in fun).  We pay the same nonresident fees as someone from Florida – or Colorado. >People put up with the bears  because the *have* to.  They are  wildlife, no

different  than deer or elk in Colorado  or any other  state.  People put up >with them because they HAVE to.

As far as Alaskans putting up with bears because they have to, I disagree. They put up with them because they want to.  Because they see the value of the bears.  Not just the natural value which is enough for some people, but the economic value too.  In my own state (Washington) grizzly bears are totally protected.  Yet grizzly bears are killed illegally despite the law.  Most of the poachers that have been caught killing grizzly bears are local residents. Grizzly bears to them are nothing but a economic loss, a nuisance, or a threat.  They see them as a reason for the closing of logging areas and other opportunities.  This is the same all over the world.  Wildlife has to pay for itself. >What do German hunters have to do with this?  ALL  non-resident  aliens have

to hire a guide for ALL  species in  Alaska…..another  law that  should be >repealed.

What German hunters have to do with this I thought would be fairly obvious when you start talking about a boycott.  If everyone in the USA decided to boycott Alaska (which I think is impossible) German hunters and other foreign hunters would simply take their place. >The state gets very  little of the guides  money.  I’d rather pay a bit more

for the tag than pay the $$thousands for a guide. As far as paying a bit more for the tag than a lot for a guide, it won’t happen.  You will pay a lot for a tag IF they are even available for you should the guide requirement be lifted.  There is nothing to prevent Alaska from doing what your state does with some animals and not allowing nonresidents to hunt grizzly bears at all.  In fact if they don’t reap a large economic benefit from nonresident hunting why should they let nonresidents hunt them?  ADF&G does not need the money from nonresident hunters.  They get plenty of money from other sources like commercial fishing. >It’s all politics…..it’s called "welfare*.

I suppose it is what you call welfare.  To me what you are talking about doing smacks closer to welfare.  Or maybe socialism.  Make it fair for everyone. Let everyone be able to afford it.  And let everyone have access.   Then everyone will have nothing.  I guess it is a matter of perception.  I think now anyone that really wants to shoot a grizzly can.  It is a matter of saving the money to do so.  I would say at least half the people I met that were out of state bear hunters were not at all rich.  They just saved for this once in a lifetime hunt.  I think that is how it should be.  The bears go to those that really want them and are willing to pay for them.  There simply are not enough for everyone to get one.  I would not mind shooting a grizzly bear. But I don’t want one bad enough to pay that kind of money.  I am simply too cheap, at least that is how I feel at the moment.  And I think that there are better deals in the world of hunting.  I can shoot 3 or 4 Cape buffalo for the price of one coastal brown bear.  Some people have no interest in Cape buffalo and only want a bear.  So be it.  I think anyone that can afford to go on a Alaskan drop hunt every year for caribou, or hunt several states a year, can afford to hunt grizzly in Alaska.  It might mean foregoing out of state hunting for a couple of years to save the money or not buying a new vehicle for a couple of years.  But I see nothing wrong with that. >I’ve seen many grizzlies too..while caribou hunting.  Now can I hunt without

a guide?  I’m not aware of any *size* requirements for any bears. I don’t doubt you have seen grizzly bears caribou hunting.  It is kind of hard not to run into them.  But I rather doubt you have seen enough of them to be good judge of size and sex.  And you are right there isn’t any size requirements.  However a guide will make certain that the hunter shoots a mature animal.  Someone with no, or limited experience in judging bears is not going to be able to make this selection so easily.  This is part of the management policy of bears in Alaska.  The guides take mostly mature males. >Do you have to hire a guide to hunt bears in Alaska?

Yes I do.  My position is not based on any selfishness.  Well at least not in the manner of having something and not wanting to share it.  I do like to know that there are lots of big bears out there and that someday if I want to hunt one I can.  That is selfishness I suppose.  But I am not ashamed of it.  I think ADF&G does one of the best jobs of any wildlife agency managing its resources.  They have one hell of a job to do too. It is far more complicated than most states with native claims,  a large commercial fishing industry, international sport hunting, subsistence hunting and fishing.  I guess I just don’t like listening to all the complaining about how unfair they are. >Maybe, if the Alaskans are that selfish.  Maybe  Colorado  should just allow

residents to hunt elk, and to hell with you non-residents….would that make >you happy?

I really doubt that Alaskans would care.  Besides Alaska allows nonresidents to hunt all but three animals without a guide.  You can even hunt elk there without a guide if you can draw a tag.  They are Washington state Roosevelt elk and get even bigger than they do here.  I don’t feel that Alaskans are at all selfish.  They allow nonresidents to shoot two caribou a year in many areas.  The fees are reasonable.  The tags are over the counter. >Jiom, you have a real sh*tty attitude about hunting, and who should be able to >hunt.  I hope you are stung some day by the very things you support.

My attitude about hunting has nothing to do with any … read more »

Response:

>Ask any of the air taxi operators in Alaska about this.  I’ve had several of

them tell me that they  *technically*  are NOT allowed to scout for  animals >for you.  It  probably  just isn’t  enforced.  I have no proof  that this is

law.  I don’t  really  care if you believe me or not, but that’s  what I was >told.

My point was that you use them as guides. What I don’t believe is that you just fly up there and tell them where to take you.  Anyone that has gone on an air drop hunt that has a lick of sense is going to take the pilots advice. They know where the caribou are.  An out of state hunter hasn’t a clue. Whatever the technical legalities are of this issue are beside the point.  You use air taxis as guides all the while complaining about guides and how you never use them and don’t need them. >I’m not waiting for "some other  organization" to do it for me.  I belong to

WLFA, an  organization  that helped pressure NM into backing down from their >guide  requirements.  IF there were  enough  support  of a boycott,  I would

boycott Alaska as well.  I can’t do it alone, so it makes no sense for me to >try right at the moment.  So, I’m  planning a trip up there this year.  This

is like  saying if you want to start a war with  Iraq, go do it, don’t  wait >for the US Military to start it.  You need to mobilize, and get an organized

effort in place to make change.  As far as attending the ADG&F  meetings, do >you really  think I should take the time and money to go there and  complain

about this  myself….get  real.  If I thought it was worth the effort,  I’d >try it .  I’m sure I’d be outnumbered by dozens of outfitters.

Well I guess that is my problem with your position.  You bring up Iraq.  If I were in favor of war with Iraq and spent my time telling everyone we should go to war with that country, I sure wouldn’t be spending my vacation there!  Or doing business with them.  A person that is serious about such a position should heed his own advice first.  I mentioned boycotting Muckleshoot and Tulalip Indian Reservations in protest of shooting pregnant cow elk in Spring. I am not going there no matter what.  I am not waiting for someone to form an official boycott. >I would  support an  ORGANIZED  boycott.  Some large  organization  needs to

communicate this to hunters all over the country….all  over the world.  If >no hunters showed up one year, and it was clear that it was to eliminate the

guide  requirement,  I’d bet someone would listen.  Nobody’s gonna care if I >don’t show up this year.

I don’t think that is true!  I bet there would be lots of people extremely happy is you never hunted in Alaska again! >I want to be able to hunt all species  WITHOUT A  GUIDE….that’s  it, plain

and  simple.  Which  part  don’t  you  understand?  A boycott  is one way to >pressure the state to eliminate  that stupid law.  A lawsuit is another.  it

worked against NM, why not Alaska?  No selfish  intentions here, I’d like to >see any hunter  able to hunt in Alaska at a  reasonable  price.  YOU are the

one that wants to price people out of the sport……guide requirements are >doing just that.

You want to be able to hunt cheap.  Your position is nothing more than the one you accuse every guide that comments on this subject of having,  That is a position based on selfish financial motives.  If you really didn’t want a guide, then go to Alaska without any help whatsoever and hunt like the residents do.  No air taxi.  Resident success rates on caribou are actually lower than nonresident rates.  That is because the nonresidents use guides (air taxis).  Whatever there technical name, they are still guiding you to the caribou. >You don’t have to have guide  requirements to ensure a stable  population of

brown bears….or  sheep….or  goats.  Just manage the game  appropriately, >and issue a limited number of liceses.

I simply don’t agree.  Not on bears anyway.  It takes someone with real knowledge to know a mature bear from an immature bear.  A sudden increase in the number of immature and female bears taken is a management problem. >Yeah,   right.  I  can  do  the   caribou   hunt  for   well   under   $2000

ALL-INCLUSIVE….a  brown bear hunt will cost $10-15K, exclusive of license, >airfare,  and  incidentals.  This is  courtesy  of the  guide  requirements.

There’s no comparison. Well I know.  That is your main concern.  Money.  You want it cheap.  What happens to the resource is secondary.  If you want a cheap grizzly bear, get an interior bear.  They can be had for half the price.  Coastal bears are going to be expensive even if they should lift the guide requirement.  They will simply raise the price of the tag. >:Skip the caribou hunt for a couple of years, save some money and go. >I don’t want to…I see no reason that I should have to.  It’s only that the

guide  requirements  make  it cost  prohibitive  at  this  time.  I’m not as >interested in hunting the bears as I am of hunting Dall sheep anyway.

This is why I really think you should go to an ADF&G meeting.  You might see some reasons. >:The price of hunts for bears

:there vary a lot depending on whether one wants a large coastal bear or is >:happy with an interior bear.  For those that really don’t in any way have

the :money, the whole argument is pointless.  They are not going to able to afford >:a bear hunt with or without a guide.  Or even go caribou hunting in Alaska. >Again, there’s a big difference in cost.  Lots of "average" people I know can

afford the caribou hunt….very few can afford the bear hunt. And again, I don’t agree.  If they can afford an air drop caribou hunt, they can afford a interior grizzly bear hunt, if it is important to them.  If they can’t afford either, dropping guide requirements won’t be the thing that prevents them from hunting.  Maybe they won’t be able to hunt as often in Alaska, but if they want a bear they can get it. :That is the way it is. >The self-sacrifice that I’m willing to give is participation in an ORGANIZED

boycott.  I would  boycott  Alaska if I could get  enough  support to make a >difference.  Also, I would be willing to contribute  several hundred dollars

to such an  effort,  to help  fund a lawsuit  against  the  state to force a >repeal  of  this  requirement  if that  were  necessary.  Is that  sacrifice

enough?  I won’t piss away my  opportunities  to hunt  there now if I see no >chance of making a difference.

No it isn’t enough.  If you really care about the issue for all the poor working hunters like you say you do, then you will lead in boycotting Alaska. You are the only one I have ever heard talk about this yet you are unwilling to "piss away" your opportunities!  Like I said, it is you that is entirely motivated by greed.  I see no self-sacrifice at all your position and no real course of action.  Just a lot of complaining about the state of the world. >:>It’s my understanding  that getting a tag isn’t that difficult, and not

that :expensive  at  $500.  There  is over  one  brown  bear  per  square  mile on >:>Admiralty  Island   alone…..about   1000  total.  I  imagine  Baranof

and :Chichagof  have similar  numbers.  That doensn’t  include those on Kodiak or >:>other  islands,  not the  mainland.  They’re  not that  scarce up there

with :almost  1000  harvested  in 1995.  We saw 8 in 10 days of caribou  huning in :’96. >:You know the above statement read by anyone that has hunted brown/grizzly

bear :in Alaska would show to them just how little you really know about hunting >:these animals.  Because you saw 8 bears while hunting caribou means nothing.

:That is like some guy back East saying he saw 8 whitetail bucks during the >:turkey season and concluding that whitetails are easy to get.  Nothing too

:bear hunting!  What a joke! >Re-read what I said.  You obviously  aren’t paying any  attention, as usual,

judging by your  comments.  I said  GETTING A TAG isn’t that  difficult  nor >expensive.  This is in response to your comment that it was.

You know Laszlo I did re-read it.  It still seems to me that you are saying that the bears aren’t that hard to get.  Why the comment on how you saw 8 bears and how many bears there are per square mile if that isn’t what you are saying?  If that isn’t what you mean, then you should write a little more clearly instead of asking me to read your mind. >:How much time exactly have you spent in Alaska?

:I am beginning to think that your above mentioned 10 days is the total.  Am I >:right? >I’ve made two trips there, planning a third.  No, you’re wrong.

Yes I am wrong.  Two trips!  Wow!  A real sourdough!  Tell me, was the other a hunting trip?  I have never heard you mention it. Or maybe it was a trip to Anchorage which of course is great preparation to judge trophy bears! Let’s see I worked there for 13 years and I would not trust myself to be the judge of what was a mature grizzly bear  in a lot of hunting conditions.  Of course for you it is no problem, I know.  After all you have seen 8 of them. You are exactly the reason they want guide requirements on grizzly bears.  You go up there twice and think you know it all. >As  far as I can  tell,  success  rates  are  very  high.  As far as  what’s

considered a "good" bear, it’s a matter of personal choice.  If I don’t want >a record bear, nothing in the regulations  says that I have to look for one.

Why do you insist on harping on bears anyway? I think you better look at that again.  Success rates are not very high on even guided bear hunts.  Why I harp on bears is that I really like bears and would hate to see anyone with a few dollars and tag popping off at the first bear he saw when you know nothing about them.  Even if you in particular were an expert, the law could not be changed to allow Laszlo to hunt grizzly bears without a guide.  It would have to include all nonresidents.  I simply think that would be insane.  These animals need all the

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Response:

: About two years ago….i ran into this guy lazlo on the internet….on : this rec.hunting forum…. Oh, and I just  looked  in my e-mail  archives.  You’re  also the  guide who didn’t even know about the new 1997 Alaska regulation  regarding the salvage of meat from the field with bones  intact.  I had to point you to the Alaska G&F web page to prove  it.  And you guys say we need  guides  to stay out of trouble….. Laszlo         Member: Wildlife Legislation Fund of America                 Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society                 National Rifle Association                 Colorado Bowhunters Association                 Ft. Collins Archery Association      Let us prey…..      PETA– People for the Eating of Tasty Animals The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of Hewlett-Packard Company Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [ snip ] >:OK.  That is your opinion.  Then do something about it.  Don’t hunt in Alaska. >:It seems rather odd that someone should call for everyone to boycott Alaska as >:he plans his next trip there.  Do what you say everyone should do. >:Complaining on the Internet is one thing.  Doing something is another.  You >:think going to ADF&G meetings and asking for changes is a waste of time.  (I >:don’t by the way).  You say you have the clear course of action that should be >:taken.  Take it.  Don’t hunt in Alaska.  Waiting for some organization to do >:it for you is really a cop out.  "I’ll do it if everyone else does." >I’m not waiting for "some other  organization" to do it for me.  I >belong to WLFA, an  organization  that helped pressure NM into backing >down from their guide  requirements.  IF there were  enough  support  of >a boycott,  I would boycott Alaska as well.  I can’t do it alone, so it >makes no sense for me to try right at the moment.  So, I’m  planning a >trip up there this year.

In other words, "Since I can’t do it *my* way, I’ll do it *their* way." [ snip ] >:I would think that if your motivations are to help >:all the downtrodden hunters who can’t afford a guide you could forego your >:trip to Alaska and support your own boycott. >I would  support an  ORGANIZED  boycott.

So ORGANIZE one. My derivative from "an ancient Chinese proverb":  "A force of one is infinitely superior to a force of none." > Some large  organization >needs to communicate this to hunters all over the country….all  over >the world.

You said you’re a member of just such an organization…  You have Internet access, with which you can "communicate this to hunters all over the … world"… COMMUNICATE! But send a *consistent* message… >:Or is it you just want >:everything cheaper for yourself but you don’t want to give anything up in >:return?  And you have twice accused me of having selfish motives in my >:position! >I want to be able to hunt all species  WITHOUT A  GUIDE….that’s  it, >plain and  simple.  Which  part  don’t  you  understand?

The part where you say, in effect, "Since I can’t do that right now, I’ll just hire a guide in accordance with their law, and hunt there anyway." Which is more important to YOU?  To hunt in Alaska without a statutory requirement for non-residents to hire a guide; or to hunt in Alaska, regardless of ancillary statutory requirements? This post to which I reply implies the latter. You’ve written compelling arguments against the application of "guide requirement" laws solely to non-residents — arguments with which I’ve agreed, and continue to agree.  Yet now it appears your arguments were insincere. "You can’t have it both ways." On which side are you, *really*?       -jc- — Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

About two years ago….i ran into this guy lazlo on the internet….on this rec.hunting forum…. He had just returned from his caribou hunt and needless to say ….had flown in with one of the most well know TAXI services on lake hood…..I wont say who it is….because i dont want to bad mouth anyone or any business…..but they have a fleet of blue and white planes….and offer tremendously low packages…so that they can gain quantity instead of quality….. This laslo guy had responded to an add that my operation posted on the internet……and right out of the starting block he began bad mouthing both guides and services in alaska…….he clamed that he is an above average hunter that has hunted in many places ….and knows more than He claimed that he and his buddies did alot of research prior to hunting alaska…..called refferences, looked at a bunch of guides and taxi services etc…. then he told me who he had flown in with…..I almost passed out from lack of oxygen…due to laughing…..because of who he opted to go with….it just didnt fit the arguement. The unfortunate situation was that this operation is well known for dropping of hunters in one general area….that 10 years ago ….used to have alot of animals……but unfortunatly the bulk of the caribou heard has moved south westward and eastward of that area since…… He saw only a few animals……was never checked on in 10 days……but was successful…..(just not the larger animals that you and I know are ever so present) basically…….this guy has no idea…other then the 10 days that he was there about our program…management process….or animal charateristics.  He is just another person that thinks because he is an american citizen, owns a gun and can pull a trigger, he should be able to go anywhere and do anything he wants….. to be honest….its people like him that give our sport a bad name…..it’s the negitive attitude that emmits from "pro hunters" that makes the "non-hunters" hate us even more…. lets face it jim……we are the minority……about 12-14 % of the population if not less "excepts" hunting as a sport and are undecided either way….. its our responcibility as hunters and outdoorsmen, to promote good management, safety and education of all aspects of the sport, so that our childrens children will be able to enjoy what we did. Never in a million years, will the ADF&G or any other state fish and wildlife open there doors to a "free for all"…….it just wont states should restrict some of their programs even more so…(in some cases only) as to continue the effective management programs for the future…….like i said in my note yesterday……if we pay the price to do our thing….we are only putting back into our own pocket for the future I dont mean "ban" certain game…or restrict non-residents…..but just make it more of a "privledge" for someone to be able to hunt outside of there territory or even within it…. the reasoning behind this…..is that it gives us hunters the assuredness that the important part of the ecosystem is being watched out for….the ANIMAL itself! Now…….let me curve this ball to another situation that hovers over the alaska "Grizzly/Brown Bear" situation….. I have noticed that within the past 10 years that the BB population in units 9/17/19 alone has sky rocked……just about every Moose kill site and even some Caribou kill sites of my clients have had bears on them within 12-24 hours….and usually not just one…but several… last year alone…..I had two whole moose sites completely covered within 12 hours after the kill……  I had two clients go home with minimal meat.  Not to mention the loss of their capes……( this was due to the fact that both animals were shot at dusk and were gutted out and left for butchering in the morning) along side that……i personally saw 27 different BB in three different Moose and caribou camps….not to mention many more from the air prior to and after leaving camps.. We have had to kill nusence BB every fall in Port Alsworth for several years now…..so I know that the population is growing somewhat out of proportion……. I would personally like to see a seperate Draw hunt take place for either late or early season bears in this area….just to aid in the control of the high numbers of bears that are present.  Not only would this be added revenue for us guides….which Mr. Lazlo" believes is unfair, but it would also open the door for more resident and non resident hunters to have a chance at a bear. I would also like to see the "every 4 regulatory year" program interrupted for a couple of seasons to aid in this problem as well….. All in all…..i support our system and trust that the PROFESSIONAL managers that WE as HUNTERs financially support, will do the right left wingers to accept….we can individually make a difference….but in the long run…the majority has the say so! Jim…..i was a pleasure hearing from you….lets stay in touch…. visit our web site if you like:    www.Alaskaoutdoors.com/LCL/ Glen Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

: About two years ago….i ran into this guy lazlo on the internet….on : this rec.hunting forum…. Hello to you too, Glen. : He had just returned from his caribou hunt and needless to say ….had : flown in with one of the most well know TAXI services on lake hood…..I : wont say who it is….because i dont want to bad mouth anyone or any : business…..but they have a fleet of blue and white planes….and offer : tremendously low packages…so that they can gain quantity instead of : quality….. Their package was  competitive, not the lowest cost.  They fly into the same area that most other air services fly into, just West of Lake Clark near the Mulchatna  River.  We spent a lot of time  talking  to  people  about  their experiences  with this  service,  and we  decided to try them out.  It’s the best we could do as non-residents,  trying to plan a trip remotely.  I won’t use them again. : This laslo guy had responded to an add that my operation posted on the : internet……and right out of the starting block he began bad mouthing : both guides and services in alaska…….he clamed that he is an above : average hunter that has hunted in many places ….and knows more than I still think I’m a pretty experienced hunter, and a good judge of trophies. I’ve hunted since I was 14, 30 years ago.  Maybe that’s not significant to you. : He claimed that he and his buddies did alot of research prior to hunting : alaska…..called refferences, looked at a bunch of guides and taxi : services etc…. We did. : then he told me who he had flown in with…..I almost passed out from : lack of oxygen…due to laughing…..because of who he opted to go : with….it just didnt fit the arguement. Lots of guys use this  service.  Go to the Bowsite and check out some of the comments.  They  have  prvided  very good  hunts for lots of  hunters.  Ours didn’t work out as good..that’s just the way caribou hunting is. : He saw only a few animals……was never checked on in 10 days……but : was successful…..(just not the larger animals that you and I know are : ever so present) That’s a lie.  We were  checked on  mid-hunt,  and they took out my meat.  I took a nice bull with my rifle, even  though I held my second tag for a bull with my bow.  One problem was we went too early, and won’t make that mistake again.  I learned a lot from that very first Alaska  hunt…..just  like the guy who comes here to Colorado on his first elk hunt. The truth of the matter is that I’d rather take 3 hunts like the one we had, spend  $5400,  than take a guided  hunt that would  cost the same.  We spent $1800 on our hunt,  including 2 caribou tags, and all other costs.  A guided hunt would cost about $3500or more,  excluding  licenses,  tags,  airfare to Alaska, and misc other costs.  I like  huntingin  Alaska, and wouldn’t  mind taking three trips even if only one of them was "successful". : to be honest….its people like him that give our sport a bad : name…..it’s the negitive attitude that emmits from "pro hunters" that : makes the "non-hunters" hate us even more…. Actually,  IMO it’s guys like you and Jim that give us a bad name.  The guys that hire  guides, and make hunting  look like an  "elitist"  activity.  The only  nergative  attitude  I have is toward  guide  requirements.  I love to hunt, and I support good game management….I’m not a "slob" hunter. : its our responcibility as hunters and outdoorsmen, to promote good : management, safety and education of all aspects of the sport, so that : our childrens children will be able to enjoy what we did. This  doesn’t have to include  guide  requirements,  which is the subject of this debate…..in case you forgot. : Never in a million years, will the ADF&G or any other state fish and : wildlife open there doors to a "free for all"…….it just wont : happen… It  doesn’t  have to be a  "free  for  all",  just  not a  "gimme"  for  the outfitters. : states should restrict some of their programs even more so…(in some : cases only) as to continue the effective management programs for the : future… Of  course!!!  As a guide, and  future  outfitter,  you want to ensure  your future.  Push for more guide  requirements!!!  Yeah, that way you’ll control all  hunting…everywhere!!  So you WOULD  support  guide  requirements  for residents in ALL states.  I’m not surprised,  since you’re a guide and would benefit from it. : ….like i said in my note yesterday……if we pay the price : to do our thing….we are only putting back into our own pocket for the : future : I dont mean "ban" certain game…or restrict non-residents…..but just : make it more of a "privledge" for someone to be able to hunt outside of : there territory or even within it…. You mean…make it more EXPENSIVE to hunt. : Now…….let me curve this ball to another situation that hovers over : the alaska "Grizzly/Brown Bear" situation….. : I have noticed that within the past 10 years that the BB population in : units 9/17/19 alone has sky rocked……just about every Moose kill site : and even some Caribou kill sites of my clients have had bears on them : within 12-24 hours….and usually not just one…but several… : last year alone…..I had two whole moose sites completely covered : within 12 hours after the kill……  I had two clients go home with : minimal meat.  Not to mention the loss of their capes……( this was : due to the fact that both animals were shot at dusk and were gutted out : and left for butchering in the morning) : along side that……i personally saw 27 different BB in three different : Moose and caribou camps….not to mention many more from the air prior : to and after leaving camps.. : We have had to kill nusence BB every fall in Port Alsworth for several : years now…..so I know that the population is growing somewhat out of : proportion……. : I would personally like to see a seperate Draw hunt take place for : either late or early season bears in this area….just to aid in the : control of the high numbers of bears that are present.  Not only would : this be added revenue for us guides….which Mr. Lazlo" believes is : unfair, but it would also open the door for more resident and non : resident hunters to have a chance at a bear. So much  for  protecting  this  precious,  rare  resource.  Sounds  like the grizzlies have become quite a pest.  So, there goes Jim’s argument for guide requirements to protect the Brown bear population. : I would also like to see the "every 4 regulatory year" program : interrupted for a couple of seasons to aid in this problem as well….. How about just  eliminating  the guide  requirement  and  issuing a few more licenses  to let  more  hunters  take  some  bears?  Oh, I  forgot…there’s nothing in it for the guides that way. : All in all…..i support our system and trust that the PROFESSIONAL : managers that WE as HUNTERs financially support, will do the right : left wingers to accept….we can individually make a difference….but : in the long run…the majority has the say so! Trust my A$$.  You trust a system that ensures your financial success.  It’s all about money, and you know it. Laszlo         Member: Wildlife Legislation Fund of America                 Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society                 National Rifle Association                 Colorado Bowhunters Association                 Ft. Collins Archery Association      Let us prey…..      PETA– People for the Eating of Tasty Animals The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of Hewlett-Packard Company : Glen Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

: I am not at all clear what you mean by the above sentence.  But if you are : trying to say that you tell the air taxi where to go, you have met some very : different air taxi services than I have.  Everyone I have used or talked to : takes the client to the animals.  What out of state hunter would have a clue : where to go?  Are you telling me that you went up there and told the air taxi : service to take you to such and such lake?  Sorry but I don’t believe it. Ask any of the air taxi operators in Alaska about this.  I’ve had several of them tell me that they  *technically*  are NOT allowed to scout for  animals for you.  It  probably  just isn’t  enforced.  I have no proof  that this is law.  I don’t  really  care if you believe me or not, but that’s  what I was told. :>IMO, the only way to repeal this guide  requirement is to pressure them into :dropping  it.  Asking them to "pretty  please" drop it isn’t going to do it. :>If I could organize an effective boycott and/or get some large  organization :like WLFA behind it to take care of the legal stuff, I would  support it.  I :>wouldn’t be planning a hunt up there right now. :OK.  That is your opinion.  Then do something about it.  Don’t hunt in Alaska. :It seems rather odd that someone should call for everyone to boycott Alaska as :he plans his next trip there.  Do what you say everyone should do. :Complaining on the Internet is one thing.  Doing something is another.  You :think going to ADF&G meetings and asking for changes is a waste of time.  (I :don’t by the way).  You say you have the clear course of action that should be :taken.  Take it.  Don’t hunt in Alaska.  Waiting for some organization to do :it for you is really a cop out.  "I’ll do it if everyone else does." I’m not waiting for "some other  organization" to do it for me.  I belong to WLFA, an  organization  that helped pressure NM into backing down from their guide  requirements.  IF there were  enough  support  of a boycott,  I would boycott Alaska as well.  I can’t do it alone, so it makes no sense for me to try right at the moment.  So, I’m  planning a trip up there this year.  This is like  saying if you want to start a war with  Iraq, go do it, don’t  wait for the US Military to start it.  You need to mobilize, and get an organized effort in place to make change.  As far as attending the ADG&F  meetings, do you really  think I should take the time and money to go there and  complain about this  myself….get  real.  If I thought it was worth the effort,  I’d try it .  I’m sure I’d be outnumbered by dozens of outfitters. :You are the one that wants the boycott. I haven’t heard this from the WLFA or :any other organization. Not yet. :I would think that if your motivations are to help :all the downtrodden hunters who can’t afford a guide you could forego your :trip to Alaska and support your own boycott. I would  support an  ORGANIZED  boycott.  Some large  organization  needs to communicate this to hunters all over the country….all  over the world.  If no hunters showed up one year, and it was clear that it was to eliminate the guide  requirement,  I’d bet someone would listen.  Nobody’s gonna care if I don’t show up this year. :Or is it you just want :everything cheaper for yourself but you don’t want to give anything up in :return?  And you have twice accused me of having selfish motives in my :position! I want to be able to hunt all species  WITHOUT A  GUIDE….that’s  it, plain and  simple.  Which  part  don’t  you  understand?  A boycott  is one way to pressure the state to eliminate  that stupid law.  A lawsuit is another.  it worked against NM, why not Alaska?  No selfish  intentions here, I’d like to see any hunter  able to hunt in Alaska at a  reasonable  price.  YOU are the one that wants to price people out of the sport……guide requirements are doing just that. :I admit my motives are a bit selfish.  I want to know that there are lots of :big bears in Alaska now and in the future.  But my motivations are not either f those of which you have accused me.  That is having a relative in Alaska so :I could hunt without a guide or when that was denied that I am filthy rich and :can go up there and shoot a bear anytime I want and the hell with everyone :else.  Not the case either. Okay, I believe you don’t have relatives there.  Let it be. :I just want stable populations of big bears in :Alaska.  Maybe someday I will hunt them.  Maybe not.  In any case I like :knowing they are there and that I have the ability to hunt them if I want to :spend the money. You don’t have to have guide  requirements to ensure a stable  population of brown bears….or  sheep….or  goats.  Just manage the game  appropriately, and issue a limited number of liceses. : And I still maintain that anyone that can fly to Alaska and : hunt caribou, can if they really, really want to, hunt grizzly bears there : too.  It is a matter of sacrifice which it should be. Yeah,   right.  I  can  do  the   caribou   hunt  for   well   under   $2000 ALL-INCLUSIVE….a  brown bear hunt will cost $10-15K, exclusive of license, airfare,  and  incidentals.  This is  courtesy  of the  guide  requirements. There’s no comparison. :Skip the caribou hunt for a couple of years, save some money and go. I don’t want to…I see no reason that I should have to.  It’s only that the guide  requirements  make  it cost  prohibitive  at  this  time.  I’m not as interested in hunting the bears as I am of hunting Dall sheep anyway. :The price of hunts for bears :there vary a lot depending on whether one wants a large coastal bear or is :happy with an interior bear.  For those that really don’t in any way have the :money, the whole argument is pointless.  They are not going to able to afford :a bear hunt with or without a guide.  Or even go caribou hunting in Alaska. Again, there’s a big difference in cost.  Lots of "average" people I know can afford the caribou hunt….very few can afford the bear hunt. :That is the way it is. But not the way it has to be. :I would think more of your opinion if you said you were never hunting in :Alaska again until they changed the present guide requirements.  That would at :least be a logical position with some little self sacrifice involved. The self-sacrifice that I’m willing to give is participation in an ORGANIZED boycott.  I would  boycott  Alaska if I could get  enough  support to make a difference.  Also, I would be willing to contribute  several hundred dollars to such an  effort,  to help  fund a lawsuit  against  the  state to force a repeal  of  this  requirement  if that  were  necessary.  Is that  sacrifice enough?  I won’t piss away my  opportunities  to hunt  there now if I see no chance of making a difference. :>It’s my understanding  that getting a tag isn’t that difficult, and not that :expensive  at  $500.  There  is over  one  brown  bear  per  square  mile on :>Admiralty  Island   alone…..about   1000  total.  I  imagine  Baranof  and :Chichagof  have similar  numbers.  That doensn’t  include those on Kodiak or :>other  islands,  not the  mainland.  They’re  not that  scarce up there with :almost  1000  harvested  in 1995.  We saw 8 in 10 days of caribou  huning in :’96. :You know the above statement read by anyone that has hunted brown/grizzly bear :in Alaska would show to them just how little you really know about hunting :these animals.  Because you saw 8 bears while hunting caribou means nothing. :That is like some guy back East saying he saw 8 whitetail bucks during the :turkey season and concluding that whitetails are easy to get.  Nothing too :bear hunting!  What a joke! Re-read what I said.  You obviously  aren’t paying any  attention, as usual, judging by your  comments.  I said  GETTING A TAG isn’t that  difficult  nor expensive.  This is in response to your comment that it was. :How much time exactly have you spent in Alaska? :I am beginning to think that your above mentioned 10 days is the total.  Am I :right? I’ve made two trips there, planning a third.  No, you’re wrong. :Talk to anyone that has hunted these bears.  Look at the success rates.  Sure :you can shoot any bear that happens along.  But most people want a nice big :bear.  Like I said guides frown upon clients shooting female or immature :bears.  They want of the clients for big, old mature male bears and the :guide’s desire for the same and the ability to judge size and sex of bears is :very much a contributing factor to the conservation of these animals.  Of :course you imply that since it isn’t a regulation that it is OK to kill any :bear the hunter deems is good enough. As  far as I can  tell,  success  rates  are  very  high.  As far as  what’s considered a "good" bear, it’s a matter of personal choice.  If I don’t want a record bear, nothing in the regulations  says that I have to look for one. Why do you insist on harping on bears anyway? :>A trophy to you may be different than a trophy to someone else, just as with :any other animal.  if they only want mature  animals shot, they should state :>it as such and define some criteria, like the full-curl requirement for Dall :sheep. :Your above statement is good evidence for guide requirements.  If there isn’t :a law that states it is illegal to shoot a female bear of breeding age than it :is OK to do so!?  Well I don’t agree.  I really don’t agree.  What criteria do :you suggest?  Don’t shoot female bears? Set some criteria, and enforce  it…that’s  all.  If that’s only harvesting male  bears,  make that the  criteria.  If it’s only  harvesting  sheep with full-curl,  make that the  criteria.  The way it is, you CAN shoot any bear, and I’m sure that many UNGUIDED residents do just that. :How many people from New York or :Florida can tell a female grizzly from a male? How many from Alaska can tell?  They can hunt without a guide. :Under your proposal some guy :that has never seen a … read more »

Response:

Sorry for the length of this, but Glen’s attitude set me off…

[snip of Lazslo bashing] > basically…….this guy has no idea…other then the 10 days that he > was there about our program…management process….or animal > charateristics.  He is just another person that thinks because he is an > american citizen, owns a gun and can pull a trigger, he should be able > to go anywhere and do anything he wants…..

Glen, I know Lazslo personally and you are about as far off base with your assessment of him as you are with the guide requirements in Alaska.  As a guide/outfitter it is easy to see which side of the bread has butter on it for you as far as this issue is concerned. > to be honest….its people like him that give our sport a bad > name…..it’s the negitive attitude that emmits from "pro hunters" that > makes the "non-hunters" hate us even more….

I sure hope you have more knowledge as a guide than you do in judging people.  I just LOVE the attitude that if you don’t agree with me you know nothing and give "our" sport a bad name. > lets face it jim……we are the minority……about 12-14 % of the > population if not less "excepts" hunting as a sport and > are undecided either way…..

And considering your attitudes about the guide requirement, I am GLAD you are in the minority (and it has nothing to do with hunting in general)! I strongly disagree that the only way of "manage" a specific animal is to charge outrageous prices so only the VERY rich can hunt.  I *KNOW* there are other ways and they have been mentioned MANY times.  However they mean you may not have as many  "high rollers" spending all their money with you so you dismiss them out of hand and pretend to be concerned about the animal.  Sorry Glen, it didn’t wash before and it doesn’t wash now. > its our responcibility as hunters and outdoorsmen, to promote good > management, safety and education of all aspects of the sport, so that > our childrens children will be able to enjoy what we did.

Lofty ideals with which I totally agree.  The problem is that you can only see the management techniques that line your pocket as "right." > Never in a million years, will the ADF&G or any other state fish and > wildlife open there doors to a "free for all"…….it just wont > states should restrict some of their programs even more so…(in some > cases only) as to continue the effective management programs for the > future…….like i said in my note yesterday……if we pay the price > to do our thing….we are only putting back into our own pocket for the > future

No argument with the fact that hunter numbers have to be controlled (no one ever advocated a "free for all").  The issue is HOW it should be done – a random lottery with reasonable license costs or such a high total "sticker price" that only a few can hunt.  I prefer the former and you the latter.  I’m not objecting to the price the Fish and Game charges for the license (in the case of Alaska) – I *AM* objecting to the *added* cost that goes directly into the outfitters pocket.  The only "future" that part is investing in is *yours*. > I dont mean "ban" certain game…or restrict non-residents…..but just > make it more of a "privledge" for someone to be able to hunt outside of > there territory or even within it….

And make sure that you line YOUR pocket off of that "privilege."  Hunting IS a privilege but shouldn’t only be limited to the rich.  Some of us are more concerned about the future of hunting than catering to the rich.  I don’t care if you do an excellent job as an outfitter and make all the money in the world! I just don’t want to be *forced* to use your services if I don’t want to. > the reasoning behind this…..is that it gives us hunters the > assuredness that the important part of the ecosystem is being watched > out for….the ANIMAL itself!

Again, there are MANY ways to watch out for the ANIMAL itself without only allowing the rich to hunt (and lining the pockets of the outfitters). [snip of Brown Bear situation in his area] > I would personally like to see a seperate Draw hunt take place for > either late or early season bears in this area….just to aid in the > control of the high numbers of bears that are present.  Not only would > this be added revenue for us guides….which Mr. Lazlo" believes is

This is the REAL attitude behind your arguments and why I don’t give them much weight. > unfair, but it would also open the door for more resident and non > resident hunters to have a chance at a bear.

*IF* they are rich! > I would also like to see the "every 4 regulatory year" program > interrupted for a couple of seasons to aid in this problem as well…..

So the few rich people who can afford your services can’t come often enough??  And I find it VERY amusing to see that your *wonderful* management system as led to a situation where you have TOO many bears. And rather than make the hunt more affordable so *different* people can hunt (and there can STILL be control of the total number of hunters and the harvest), you would prefer that the rich few be able to hunt more often!  Do you realize how transparent you are? > All in all…..i support our system and trust that the PROFESSIONAL > managers that WE as HUNTERs financially support, will do the right > left wingers to accept….we can individually make a difference….but > in the long run…the majority has the say so!

Oh, I thought it was the politicians, not the professional managers who passed and promoted the guide requirement.  Didn’t you mean to say that you support a system where HUNTERs financially support YOU?  Heaven forbid that you have to operate in a system where you have to offer services that justify what you charge – you prefer a system that *forces* hunters to use you.  (God, what a thought – let’s pass a law that says that everyone HAS to have a college degree…  After all, it’s for your own good and it invests in our future!) > Glen

Sorry if I was a bit "testy" on this issue, but I hate to see people with a personal agenda downgrading people and spewing nonsense.  And I hate the idea of being *forced* to use a *service* that I may or may not need or want (no matter WHERE it is). Ken Yoder Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

>They are not supposed to take you

where you tell them to, not to where they have  determined  the animals are, >unless  they have a guides  license as well.

I am not at all clear what you mean by the above sentence.  But if you are trying to say that you tell the air taxi where to go, you have met some very different air taxi services than I have.  Everyone I have used or talked to takes the client to the animals.  What out of state hunter would have a clue where to go?  Are you telling me that you went up there and told the air taxi service to take you to such and such lake?  Sorry but I don’t believe it. >IMO, the only way to repeal this guide  requirement is to pressure them into

dropping  it.  Asking them to "pretty  please" drop it isn’t going to do it. >If I could organize an effective boycott and/or get some large  organization

like WLFA behind it to take care of the legal stuff, I would  support it.  I >wouldn’t be planning a hunt up there right now.

OK.  That is your opinion.  Then do something about it.  Don’t hunt in Alaska. It seems rather odd that someone should call for everyone to boycott Alaska as he plans his next trip there.  Do what you say everyone should do. Complaining on the Internet is one thing.  Doing something is another.  You think going to ADF&G meetings and asking for changes is a waste of time.  (I don’t by the way).  You say you have the clear course of action that should be taken.  Take it.  Don’t hunt in Alaska.  Waiting for some organization to do it for you is really a cop out.  "I’ll do it if everyone else does." You are the one that wants the boycott.  I haven’t heard this from the WLFA or any other organization.  I would think that if your motivations are to help all the downtrodden hunters who can’t afford a guide you could forego your trip to Alaska and support your own boycott.  Or is it you just want everything cheaper for yourself but you don’t want to give anything up in return?  And you have twice accused me of having selfish motives in my position! I admit my motives are a bit selfish.  I want to know that there are lots of big bears in Alaska now and in the future.  But my motivations are not either of those of which you have accused me.  That is having a relative in Alaska so I could hunt without a guide or when that was denied that I am filthy rich and can go up there and shoot a bear anytime I want and the hell with everyone else.  Not the case either.  I just want stable populations of big bears in Alaska.  Maybe someday I will hunt them.  Maybe not.  In any case I like knowing they are there and that I have the ability to hunt them if I want to spend the money.  And I still maintain that anyone that can fly to Alaska and hunt caribou, can if they really, really want to, hunt grizzly bears there too.  It is a matter of sacrifice which it should be.  Skip the caribou hunt for a couple of years, save some money and go.  The price of hunts for bears there vary a lot depending on whether one wants a large coastal bear or is happy with an interior bear.  For those that really don’t in any way have the money, the whole argument is pointless.  They are not going to able to afford a bear hunt with or without a guide.  Or even go caribou hunting in Alaska. That is the way it is. I would think more of your opinion if you said you were never hunting in Alaska again until they changed the present guide requirements.  That would at least be a logical position with some little self sacrifice involved. >It’s my understanding  that getting a tag isn’t that difficult, and not that

expensive  at  $500.  There  is over  one  brown  bear  per  square  mile on >Admiralty  Island   alone…..about   1000  total.  I  imagine  Baranof  and

Chichagof  have similar  numbers.  That doensn’t  include those on Kodiak or >other  islands,  not the  mainland.  They’re  not that  scarce up there with

almost  1000  harvested  in 1995.  We saw 8 in 10 days of caribou  huning in ‘96. You know the above statement read by anyone that has hunted brown/grizzly bear in Alaska would show to them just how little you really know about hunting these animals.  Because you saw 8 bears while hunting caribou means nothing. That is like some guy back East saying he saw 8 whitetail bucks during the turkey season and concluding that whitetails are easy to get.  Nothing too bear hunting!  What a joke!  How much time exactly have you spent in Alaska? I am beginning to think that your above mentioned 10 days is the total.  Am I right? Talk to anyone that has hunted these bears.  Look at the success rates.  Sure you can shoot any bear that happens along.  But most people want a nice big bear.  Like I said guides frown upon clients shooting female or immature bears.  They want of the clients for big, old mature male bears and the guide’s desire for the same and the ability to judge size and sex of bears is very much a contributing factor to the conservation of these animals.  Of course you imply that since it isn’t a regulation that it is OK to kill any bear the hunter deems is good enough. >A trophy to you may be different than a trophy to someone else, just as with

any other animal.  if they only want mature  animals shot, they should state >it as such and define some criteria, like the full-curl requirement for Dall

sheep. Your above statement is good evidence for guide requirements.  If there isn’t a law that states it is illegal to shoot a female bear of breeding age than it is OK to do so!?  Well I don’t agree.  I really don’t agree.  What criteria do you suggest?  Don’t shoot female bears?  How many people from New York or Florida can tell a female grizzly from a male?  Under your proposal some guy that has never seen a grizzly before could just buy a tag and hunt them.  No thanks.  I would rather have a stable bear population and never be able to hunt them than have the bears randomly killed by someone that just wants to shoot a grizzly bear and doesn’t care what the age or the sex of the bear is. The trophy hunting of brown/grizzly bears is very much a part of the management of these animals.  Just because there isn’t a law that states this doesn’t mean it doesn’t in fact happen.  You not only want them to lift the guide requirements, but to rewrite the laws to somehow prevent people that have never before hunted grizzly bears from shooting immature and female animals!  Sure thing. I hope your wish for unguided grizzly bear hunts in Alaska never comes to pass if your attitude is typical.  Actually though I am not the least bit worried. ADF&G is not about to lift the guide requirement on these animals.  They know that there are too many people that would just go up and shoot the first bear they saw.  The bears don’t need that. Go ahead and keep complaining about the unjust system in Alaska and calling for everyone to boycott the state.  I will keep hunting there.  So will most people, I believe.  The funny thing is that you will too. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

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