Brakes slow to react
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, Dan, > I presume that you are replying to my posting of July 1. Since you have a > ‘96 with a V6, and I have a 2001 with a V8 and the same problem, it seems > that Ford has turned a "blind eye" to this problem for quite some time! > I tried to encourage others in this newsgroup to test the brakes of their > Explorers in a simulated "panic stop" , but got little response. I even got > replies from some "well-meaning" participants suggesting repairs, but it was > obvious that they hadn’t even tested their truck for the problem. As I > mentioned, I have demonstrated the same braking lag on every Explorer that I > have test-driven (about 10, I guess). > Since "all" of the Explorers demonstrate the problem, it seems to be a true > design flaw, so the dealers would be unable to repair the truck. The new > parts would perform the same way. The dealer wouldn’t even try a repair on > my truck. I guess that it will take a few deaths before anyone cares. > Ron
I have tried this test on my UK spec ‘98 automatic and yes, there is a brief interlude between stomping on the pedal and getting full braking power. There is an immediate deceleration but then a moment later the braking effort increases without further pedal pressure. Could this be something to do with the automatic transmission not ‘dis-engaging’ (wrong terminology, I know) or some emission control device that burns off all the fuel in the manifold system before actually cutting power at the engine? Hope you guys know what I mean! Big S
Response:
I have often called on my ’95’s brakes to haul me down from high speeds in panic situations, and not once have I been disappointed with the performance. Sure, it’s no Porsche, but I’ve never experienced any kind of hesitation or resistance to applying full braking. I’m often amazed at how well it stops considering its mass. It’s always up to the task of stopping quickly, even with the 3000lbs of boat that I’m often towing. PEM
Response:
My 95 brakes extremely well in all situations except the one described. If I panic jam the pedal it does indeed feel like it is fighting back for a short time. Anything less than a panic stop actually stops better than my car. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have often called on my ’95’s brakes to haul me down from high speeds in >panic situations, and not once have I been disappointed with the >performance. Sure, it’s no Porsche, but I’ve never experienced any kind of >hesitation or resistance to applying full braking. I’m often amazed at how >well it stops considering its mass. It’s always up to the task of stopping >quickly, even with the 3000lbs of boat that I’m often towing. >PEM
Response:
been there/done that. Fronts lock up, rears do their psuedo-abs thing. Exactly what a ‘92 XLT should do. Of course this is with these ‘upgrades’ and maintenance: performance friction pads front and back new OE-equiv rotors front, never turned (60k or so) original drums, never turned new flex hoses all the way around brakes flushed with DOT3/4 synthetic brake fluid regularly wheel bearings checked regularly (and tight) rear brakes self-adjusted and tested (e-brake effectiveness test) regularly What could be happening is when you jam on the brakes you’re taking the brake booster out of the scenario, so the brake rod gets shoved forward but not smoothly, and as vaccum builds back up (that next second or so) it pulls the brakes down properly. Try stopping your explorer with the brake booster disabled (vaccum line disconnected and plugged). Just be sure there won’t be ANYTHING to run into for a long distance. Try panic stopping – thats even worse. JS
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I can understand peoples’ reluctance to believe that the best-selling > SUV on the market has a faulty brake system. > All I can ask is that you try the following: > 1) Get in a Ford Explorer. Apparently just about any model. > 2) Find a nice empty stretch of road. > 3) Go anywhere between 30-40 mph. > 4) MAKE SURE NOBODY IS BEHIND YOU. > 5) Stomp on your brake pedal AS HARD AS YOU CAN. STOMP. Do not hold > back. Literally try to break the pedal off. > When I do this, the brake pedal literally feels like a BRICK – it > doesn’t move AT ALL for about 1/2 second. There is no pulsation. > After that 1/2 second, the pedal finally sinks away and the brakes > come on (pretty darn hard in fact), and depending on your speed and > how sticky the road is, ABS may or may not engage. But there is no > doubt in my mind that the delay is too long – I learned to drive my > Explorer in Boston, where I became quite familiar with my ABS system > on snow and ice – this delay is most definitely NOT a good thing. > This morning I did some testing and determined that if I start > pressing slowly and then accelerate my pressing of the brake, I can > stop MUCH faster than when I stomp on the pedal. In fact it is easier > to get my ABS brakes to activate this way – start pressing slowly and > then turn that press into a stomp. > I must say I’m intrigued about Jacob’s post regarding replacing of the > stock rubber flex hoses – I may give that a try. > To all other readers, please don’t chalk this up to us not knowing > what we’re talking about – I may not know how the ABS system works, > but I know when my truck doesn’t stop as fast as it should. > Don’t believe me? TRY IT YOURSELF.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The problem described is the common ‘unfamiliarity with ABS operation > syndrome’. ABS is designed to operate when the pedal is stomped on; the > system will pulsate as the brakes are activated, released, activated, and > released until the vehicle is stopped. > The system is not designed to lightly applied, 99 % braking is not designed > to be ‘feathered’. Also extreme high speeds have longer braking distance; > ABS brakes are not ‘miracle brakes. > > My 92 XLT (RABS) will stop almost as fast as my ‘01 santa fe (w/ 4W ABS). > > Replacing the rubber flex hoses helped considerably. I’m thinking Ford’s > > brake hoses might just suck. > > I have to say the brake system on my Explorer is better than its ever > been – > > even brand new. The A/C is now also amazingly freakin cold (my R134A swap > > seems to have worked with a new condensor, and no leakage so far) > > JS > > > Hello, Dan, > > > I presume that you are replying to my posting of July 1. Since you have > a > > > ‘96 with a V6, and I have a 2001 with a V8 and the same problem, it > seems > > > that Ford has turned a "blind eye" to this problem for quite some time! > > > I tried to encourage others in this newsgroup to test the brakes of > their > > > Explorers in a simulated "panic stop" , but got little response. I even > got > > > replies from some "well-meaning" participants suggesting repairs, but it > was > > > obvious that they hadn’t even tested their truck for the problem. As I > > > mentioned, I have demonstrated the same braking lag on every Explorer > that > I > > > have test-driven (about 10, I guess). > > > Since "all" of the Explorers demonstrate the problem, it seems to be a > true > > > design flaw, so the dealers would be unable to repair the truck. The > new > > > parts would perform the same way. The dealer wouldn’t even try a repair > on > > > my truck. I guess that it will take a few deaths before anyone cares. > > > Ron > > > — > > > > I feel soooo vindicated! I own a ‘96 Explorer XLT, a V6. I have > > > > unfortunately felt these symptoms – I rear-ended someone on the > > > > highway here in Dallas, in October of last year. The behavior is > > > > documented in my accident report. > > > > I had felt it before the accident too, but always chalked it up to "my > > > > imagination", no big deal, "I’m sure they will work when I need them". > > > > They did NOT. > > > > Fortunately nobody was hurt, but every time I hear one of the many new > > > > rattles that appeared after the accident (LOTS of front end damage), I > > > > think about it. Now when I need to stop short I ALWAYS assume it > > > > won’t be able to stop in time. > > > > I too can reproduce the symptoms – I’ve even thought about > > > > demonstrating it to the dealer, but I too have rented other explorers > > > > and THEY ALL do it. Some worse than others. I too have asked the > > > > advice of a lawyer, and his response was the same – "why would you > > > > drive a car that you suspected had defective brakes"? > > > > Grrrr…
Response:
Sounds like "good ole brake fade" in your case. That will occur near the end of a long, hard or repeated stop. It could also be time for a brake fluid flush and some higher-performance pads in your case. Beware, though, that the metallic or high performance pads may take more pedal pressure, and not work extremely well when cold. The problem of which I speak is a delay followed by slow application of braking force at the start of braking when the pedal is depressed rapidly and hard. Ron —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a 98 Ranger, and I’ve tried to stop quickly a couple of > time from freeway speeds. (Neither was an emergency — I was > trying to stop quickly to go across the freeway and get on in the > other direction.) Both times the brakes were quite > unsatisfactory. > Both times it had NOTHING to do with the ABS. It was on dry > pavement, in the Summer, and the pedal didn’t pulse. I know what > the ABS system feels like when it activates — I live in the > snowbelt! > I’ve never had a car with brakes that seemed to fade (or > whatever) as quickly as the Ranger. The initial stopping seemed > OK, but it was quickly apparent that the truck wasn’t slowing > down as fast as I thought it should. I had to stand on the pedal > in the last20 or 30 feet in order to get it stopped enough to > turn onto the utility strip. And, it didn’t react with that much > more stopping power. I was standing on the pedal hard enough > that something should have broken loose and started skidding and > activated the ABS. > Fortunately, I made the turn OK. > It didn’t give me confidence.
Response:
I can understand peoples’ reluctance to believe that the best-selling SUV on the market has a faulty brake system. All I can ask is that you try the following: 1) Get in a Ford Explorer. Apparently just about any model. 2) Find a nice empty stretch of road. 3) Go anywhere between 30-40 mph. 4) MAKE SURE NOBODY IS BEHIND YOU. 5) Stomp on your brake pedal AS HARD AS YOU CAN. STOMP. Do not hold back. Literally try to break the pedal off. When I do this, the brake pedal literally feels like a BRICK – it doesn’t move AT ALL for about 1/2 second. There is no pulsation. After that 1/2 second, the pedal finally sinks away and the brakes come on (pretty darn hard in fact), and depending on your speed and how sticky the road is, ABS may or may not engage. But there is no doubt in my mind that the delay is too long – I learned to drive my Explorer in Boston, where I became quite familiar with my ABS system on snow and ice – this delay is most definitely NOT a good thing. This morning I did some testing and determined that if I start pressing slowly and then accelerate my pressing of the brake, I can stop MUCH faster than when I stomp on the pedal. In fact it is easier to get my ABS brakes to activate this way – start pressing slowly and then turn that press into a stomp. I must say I’m intrigued about Jacob’s post regarding replacing of the stock rubber flex hoses – I may give that a try. To all other readers, please don’t chalk this up to us not knowing what we’re talking about – I may not know how the ABS system works, but I know when my truck doesn’t stop as fast as it should. Don’t believe me? TRY IT YOURSELF. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The problem described is the common ‘unfamiliarity with ABS operation > syndrome’. ABS is designed to operate when the pedal is stomped on; the > system will pulsate as the brakes are activated, released, activated, and > released until the vehicle is stopped. > The system is not designed to lightly applied, 99 % braking is not designed > to be ‘feathered’. Also extreme high speeds have longer braking distance; > ABS brakes are not ‘miracle brakes. > My 92 XLT (RABS) will stop almost as fast as my ‘01 santa fe (w/ 4W ABS). > Replacing the rubber flex hoses helped considerably. I’m thinking Ford’s > brake hoses might just suck. > I have to say the brake system on my Explorer is better than its ever > been – > even brand new. The A/C is now also amazingly freakin cold (my R134A swap > seems to have worked with a new condensor, and no leakage so far) > JS > > Hello, Dan, > > I presume that you are replying to my posting of July 1. Since you have > a > > ‘96 with a V6, and I have a 2001 with a V8 and the same problem, it > seems > > that Ford has turned a "blind eye" to this problem for quite some time! > > I tried to encourage others in this newsgroup to test the brakes of > their > > Explorers in a simulated "panic stop" , but got little response. I even > got > > replies from some "well-meaning" participants suggesting repairs, but it > was > > obvious that they hadn’t even tested their truck for the problem. As I > > mentioned, I have demonstrated the same braking lag on every Explorer > that > I > > have test-driven (about 10, I guess). > > Since "all" of the Explorers demonstrate the problem, it seems to be a > true > > design flaw, so the dealers would be unable to repair the truck. The > new > > parts would perform the same way. The dealer wouldn’t even try a repair > on > > my truck. I guess that it will take a few deaths before anyone cares. > > Ron > > — > > > I feel soooo vindicated! I own a ‘96 Explorer XLT, a V6. I have > > > unfortunately felt these symptoms – I rear-ended someone on the > > > highway here in Dallas, in October of last year. The behavior is > > > documented in my accident report. > > > I had felt it before the accident too, but always chalked it up to "my > > > imagination", no big deal, "I’m sure they will work when I need them". > > > They did NOT. > > > Fortunately nobody was hurt, but every time I hear one of the many new > > > rattles that appeared after the accident (LOTS of front end damage), I > > > think about it. Now when I need to stop short I ALWAYS assume it > > > won’t be able to stop in time. > > > I too can reproduce the symptoms – I’ve even thought about > > > demonstrating it to the dealer, but I too have rented other explorers > > > and THEY ALL do it. Some worse than others. I too have asked the > > > advice of a lawyer, and his response was the same – "why would you > > > drive a car that you suspected had defective brakes"? > > > Grrrr…
Response:
Don, thanks for the info. This is not something I have noticed on my two Explorers. The situation I describe is omnipresent. You can apply the brakes multiple times or after a long drive and still have the slow system response. Ron L. —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A related note: I have found my Explorer brakes to be a lot more sensitive > to (apparently) moisture on the rotor. More than my previous GM vehicles > were, that is. After being parked outside on a dew-y night, at start of > rain or after getting the wheels into water, the braking gets very > "exciting" – several close calls where I almost rear-ended another car. > I concede this is generally the case with disc brakes when wet, I feel my > Explorer is much more susceptible and the effect more pronounced that with > any other vehicle I’ve owned. And, I *DO* stomp the brakes when this > occurs!
Response:
Are you still using OE pads? Regards, Ed White – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Don, thanks for the info. This is not something I have noticed on my two > Explorers. The situation I describe is omnipresent. You can apply the > brakes multiple times or after a long drive and still have the slow system > response. > Ron L. > — > A related note: I have found my Explorer brakes to be a lot more > sensitive > to (apparently) moisture on the rotor. More than my previous GM vehicles > were, that is. After being parked outside on a dew-y night, at start of > rain or after getting the wheels into water, the braking gets very > "exciting" – several close calls where I almost rear-ended another car. > I concede this is generally the case with disc brakes when wet, I feel my > Explorer is much more susceptible and the effect more pronounced that with > any other vehicle I’ve owned. And, I *DO* stomp the brakes when this > occurs!
Response:
Yes. But that’s not it. Go try "the test". Ron — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Are you still using OE pads? > Regards, > Ed White > Don, thanks for the info. This is not something I have noticed on my two > Explorers. The situation I describe is omnipresent. You can apply the > brakes multiple times or after a long drive and still have the slow system > response. > Ron L. > — > > A related note: I have found my Explorer brakes to be a lot more > sensitive > > to (apparently) moisture on the rotor. More than my previous GM vehicles > > were, that is. After being parked outside on a dew-y night, at start of > > rain or after getting the wheels into water, the braking gets very > > "exciting" – several close calls where I almost rear-ended another car. > > I concede this is generally the case with disc brakes when wet, I feel my > > Explorer is much more susceptible and the effect more pronounced that with > > any other vehicle I’ve owned. And, I *DO* stomp the brakes when this > > occurs!
Response:
A related note: I have found my Explorer brakes to be a lot more sensitive to (apparently) moisture on the rotor. More than my previous GM vehicles were, that is. After being parked outside on a dew-y night, at start of rain or after getting the wheels into water, the braking gets very "exciting" – several close calls where I almost rear-ended another car. I concede this is generally the case with disc brakes when wet, I feel my Explorer is much more susceptible and the effect more pronounced that with any other vehicle I’ve owned. And, I *DO* stomp the brakes when this occurs!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The problem described is the common ‘unfamiliarity with ABS operation > syndrome’. ABS is designed to operate when the pedal is stomped on; the > system will pulsate as the brakes are activated, released, activated, and > released until the vehicle is stopped. > The system is not designed to lightly applied, 99 % braking is not designed > to be ‘feathered’. Also extreme high speeds have longer braking distance; > ABS brakes are not ‘miracle brakes. > My 92 XLT (RABS) will stop almost as fast as my ‘01 santa fe (w/ 4W ABS). > Replacing the rubber flex hoses helped considerably. I’m thinking Ford’s > brake hoses might just suck. > I have to say the brake system on my Explorer is better than its ever > been – > even brand new. The A/C is now also amazingly freakin cold (my R134A swap > seems to have worked with a new condensor, and no leakage so far) > JS > > Hello, Dan, > > I presume that you are replying to my posting of July 1. Since you have > a > > ‘96 with a V6, and I have a 2001 with a V8 and the same problem, it > seems > > that Ford has turned a "blind eye" to this problem for quite some time! > > I tried to encourage others in this newsgroup to test the brakes of > their > > Explorers in a simulated "panic stop" , but got little response. I even > got > > replies from some "well-meaning" participants suggesting repairs, but it > was > > obvious that they hadn’t even tested their truck for the problem. As I > > mentioned, I have demonstrated the same braking lag on every Explorer > that > I > > have test-driven (about 10, I guess). > > Since "all" of the Explorers demonstrate the problem, it seems to be a > true > > design flaw, so the dealers would be unable to repair the truck. The > new > > parts would perform the same way. The dealer wouldn’t even try a repair > on > > my truck. I guess that it will take a few deaths before anyone cares. > > Ron > > — > > > I feel soooo vindicated! I own a ‘96 Explorer XLT, a V6. I have > > > unfortunately felt these symptoms – I rear-ended someone on the > > > highway here in Dallas, in October of last year. The behavior is > > > documented in my accident report. > > > I had felt it before the accident too, but always chalked it up to "my > > > imagination", no big deal, "I’m sure they will work when I need them". > > > They did NOT. > > > Fortunately nobody was hurt, but every time I hear one of the many new > > > rattles that appeared after the accident (LOTS of front end damage), I > > > think about it. Now when I need to stop short I ALWAYS assume it > > > won’t be able to stop in time. > > > I too can reproduce the symptoms – I’ve even thought about > > > demonstrating it to the dealer, but I too have rented other explorers > > > and THEY ALL do it. Some worse than others. I too have asked the > > > advice of a lawyer, and his response was the same – "why would you > > > drive a car that you suspected had defective brakes"? > > > Grrrr…
Response:
> tried to encourage others in this newsgroup to test the brakes of their >Explorers in a simulated "panic stop"
My 99 mountaineer v8 does it too. If you just mash on the pedal braking is crappy. Go down a road at like 20 and just smash the pedal it feels like no brake power. My brakes are fine (just spent $600 on a brake job). If you just slow down the hit on the brake pedal they work great. It’s almost as if the brake fluid can’t flow out of the master cylinder fast enough-just slow down the pedal motion a little and they work fine.
Response:
Thank you Gentlemen for your responses. I’m sure you mean well, but you have missed the point. The Explorers and Mountaineers have a design flaw that results in a braking deficiency that could lead to serious damage and/or death. This is a problem that I have personally demonstrated in every Explorer or Mountaineer that I have driven in the model years of 1999 through 2001 ( I think all were V8s), and before that, according to replies that I have received from others (see note from Dan Waltuck at bottom of this message). The severity varies slightly between vehicles, but the problem is there. I don’t know if the problem exists in the ‘02. If you have one of these vehicles, you must test it yourself before you try to "calm" this thread down. As I explained in July: "The brakes on my 2001 EB, 5.0V8 are very slow to react when the pedal is suddenly and rapidly pressed, as in an emergency stop situation. It’s during the kind of stops where you hear your shoe hit the pedal, and you strain your leg pushing hard because you need to stop NOW. It’s not brake fade, it’s a failure for the pads to engage the rotors rapidly and with force. The pedal feels like it doesn’t want to be pressed down during that time — like it’s fighting me. No, I don’t get any pulsing at all, as if the ABS is engaging. The effect occurs at any speed, from 5mph to 65mph (dry or wet pavement, cold or hot weather etc.). Otherwise, the brakes behave fine. It’s only when you really need rapid brake engagement that the system causes a big delay (1/2 second or more???), and then slow application of the braking force after that. Test the brakes as follows: Stomp on the pedal hard and fast, and hold the pressure. Try it at a slow (vehicle) speed first — don’t worry, you wont even lock the wheels. After you experience the results, you can try it at a faster speed also." Charles, I am very familiar with ABS. I have owned at least 5 vehicles (sedans and SUVs) with ABS, and live in Minnesota (ice, snow, sand, rain, etc.). I am also a product design engineer and race car driver who has been doing auto repair work for over 30 years. I began my professional career as an engineer in Detroit at one of the "Big Three". I do agree with you that the faulty brake action is probably related to the ABS system. It may even be a "design feature" — It doesn’t really matter. The end result is that the system behavior creates a safety hazard and that it is unrepairable without a design change (that is, a modification to the braking system that is currently "non-stock"). It doesn’t even matter if the problem is endemic to all ABS systems (could be…). It’s still a safety problem that needs attention. If the readers of this message would all perform a quick test and report back, maybe the results could lead to actions that would save money and possibly lives. Thank you. Ron L. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The problem described is the common ‘unfamiliarity with ABS operation > syndrome’. ABS is designed to operate when the pedal is stomped on; the > system will pulsate as the brakes are activated, released, activated, and > released until the vehicle is stopped. > The system is not designed to lightly applied, 99 % braking is not designed > to be ‘feathered’. Also extreme high speeds have longer braking distance; > ABS brakes are not ‘miracle brakes. > My 92 XLT (RABS) will stop almost as fast as my ‘01 santa fe (w/ 4W ABS). > Replacing the rubber flex hoses helped considerably. I’m thinking Ford’s > brake hoses might just suck. > I have to say the brake system on my Explorer is better than its ever been – > even brand new. The A/C is now also amazingly freakin cold (my R134A swap > seems to have worked with a new condensor, and no leakage so far) > JS > > Hello, Dan, > > I presume that you are replying to my posting of July 1. Since you have a > > ‘96 with a V6, and I have a 2001 with a V8 and the same problem, it seems > > that Ford has turned a "blind eye" to this problem for quite some time! > > I tried to encourage others in this newsgroup to test the brakes of their > > Explorers in a simulated "panic stop" , but got little response. I even got > > replies from some "well-meaning" participants suggesting repairs, but it was > > obvious that they hadn’t even tested their truck for the problem. As I > > mentioned, I have demonstrated the same braking lag on every Explorer that I > > have test-driven (about 10, I guess). > > Since "all" of the Explorers demonstrate the problem, it seems to be a true > > design flaw, so the dealers would be unable to repair the truck. The new > > parts would perform the same way. The dealer wouldn’t even try a repair on > > my truck. I guess that it will take a few deaths before anyone cares. > > Ron > > — > > > I feel soooo vindicated! I own a ‘96 Explorer XLT, a V6. I have > > > unfortunately felt these symptoms – I rear-ended someone on the > > > highway here in Dallas, in October of last year. The behavior is > > > documented in my accident report. > > > I had felt it before the accident too, but always chalked it up to "my > > > imagination", no big deal, "I’m sure they will work when I need them". > > > They did NOT. > > > Fortunately nobody was hurt, but every time I hear one of the many new > > > rattles that appeared after the accident (LOTS of front end damage), I > > > think about it. Now when I need to stop short I ALWAYS assume it > > > won’t be able to stop in time. > > > I too can reproduce the symptoms – I’ve even thought about > > > demonstrating it to the dealer, but I too have rented other explorers > > > and THEY ALL do it. Some worse than others.
Response:
The problem described is the common ‘unfamiliarity with ABS operation syndrome’. ABS is designed to operate when the pedal is stomped on; the system will pulsate as the brakes are activated, released, activated, and released until the vehicle is stopped. The system is not designed to lightly applied, 99 % braking is not designed to be ‘feathered’. Also extreme high speeds have longer braking distance; ABS brakes are not ‘miracle brakes.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My 92 XLT (RABS) will stop almost as fast as my ‘01 santa fe (w/ 4W ABS). > Replacing the rubber flex hoses helped considerably. I’m thinking Ford’s > brake hoses might just suck. > I have to say the brake system on my Explorer is better than its ever been – > even brand new. The A/C is now also amazingly freakin cold (my R134A swap > seems to have worked with a new condensor, and no leakage so far) > JS > Hello, Dan, > I presume that you are replying to my posting of July 1. Since you have a > ‘96 with a V6, and I have a 2001 with a V8 and the same problem, it seems > that Ford has turned a "blind eye" to this problem for quite some time! > I tried to encourage others in this newsgroup to test the brakes of their > Explorers in a simulated "panic stop" , but got little response. I even > got > replies from some "well-meaning" participants suggesting repairs, but it > was > obvious that they hadn’t even tested their truck for the problem. As I > mentioned, I have demonstrated the same braking lag on every Explorer that > I > have test-driven (about 10, I guess). > Since "all" of the Explorers demonstrate the problem, it seems to be a > true > design flaw, so the dealers would be unable to repair the truck. The new > parts would perform the same way. The dealer wouldn’t even try a repair > on > my truck. I guess that it will take a few deaths before anyone cares. > Ron > — > > I feel soooo vindicated! I own a ‘96 Explorer XLT, a V6. I have > > unfortunately felt these symptoms – I rear-ended someone on the > > highway here in Dallas, in October of last year. The behavior is > > documented in my accident report. > > I had felt it before the accident too, but always chalked it up to "my > > imagination", no big deal, "I’m sure they will work when I need them". > > They did NOT. > > Fortunately nobody was hurt, but every time I hear one of the many new > > rattles that appeared after the accident (LOTS of front end damage), I > > think about it. Now when I need to stop short I ALWAYS assume it > > won’t be able to stop in time. > > I too can reproduce the symptoms – I’ve even thought about > > demonstrating it to the dealer, but I too have rented other explorers > > and THEY ALL do it. Some worse than others. I too have asked the > > advice of a lawyer, and his response was the same – "why would you > > drive a car that you suspected had defective brakes"? > > Grrrr…
Response:
My 92 XLT (RABS) will stop almost as fast as my ‘01 santa fe (w/ 4W ABS). Replacing the rubber flex hoses helped considerably. I’m thinking Ford’s brake hoses might just suck. I have to say the brake system on my Explorer is better than its ever been – even brand new. The A/C is now also amazingly freakin cold (my R134A swap seems to have worked with a new condensor, and no leakage so far) JS
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, Dan, > I presume that you are replying to my posting of July 1. Since you have a > ‘96 with a V6, and I have a 2001 with a V8 and the same problem, it seems > that Ford has turned a "blind eye" to this problem for quite some time! > I tried to encourage others in this newsgroup to test the brakes of their > Explorers in a simulated "panic stop" , but got little response. I even got > replies from some "well-meaning" participants suggesting repairs, but it was > obvious that they hadn’t even tested their truck for the problem. As I > mentioned, I have demonstrated the same braking lag on every Explorer that I > have test-driven (about 10, I guess). > Since "all" of the Explorers demonstrate the problem, it seems to be a true > design flaw, so the dealers would be unable to repair the truck. The new > parts would perform the same way. The dealer wouldn’t even try a repair on > my truck. I guess that it will take a few deaths before anyone cares. > Ron > — > I feel soooo vindicated! I own a ‘96 Explorer XLT, a V6. I have > unfortunately felt these symptoms – I rear-ended someone on the > highway here in Dallas, in October of last year. The behavior is > documented in my accident report. > I had felt it before the accident too, but always chalked it up to "my > imagination", no big deal, "I’m sure they will work when I need them". > They did NOT. > Fortunately nobody was hurt, but every time I hear one of the many new > rattles that appeared after the accident (LOTS of front end damage), I > think about it. Now when I need to stop short I ALWAYS assume it > won’t be able to stop in time. > I too can reproduce the symptoms – I’ve even thought about > demonstrating it to the dealer, but I too have rented other explorers > and THEY ALL do it. Some worse than others. I too have asked the > advice of a lawyer, and his response was the same – "why would you > drive a car that you suspected had defective brakes"? > Grrrr…
Response:
Hello, Dan, I presume that you are replying to my posting of July 1. Since you have a ‘96 with a V6, and I have a 2001 with a V8 and the same problem, it seems that Ford has turned a "blind eye" to this problem for quite some time! I tried to encourage others in this newsgroup to test the brakes of their Explorers in a simulated "panic stop" , but got little response. I even got replies from some "well-meaning" participants suggesting repairs, but it was obvious that they hadn’t even tested their truck for the problem. As I mentioned, I have demonstrated the same braking lag on every Explorer that I have test-driven (about 10, I guess). Since "all" of the Explorers demonstrate the problem, it seems to be a true design flaw, so the dealers would be unable to repair the truck. The new parts would perform the same way. The dealer wouldn’t even try a repair on my truck. I guess that it will take a few deaths before anyone cares. Ron —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I feel soooo vindicated! I own a ‘96 Explorer XLT, a V6. I have > unfortunately felt these symptoms – I rear-ended someone on the > highway here in Dallas, in October of last year. The behavior is > documented in my accident report. > I had felt it before the accident too, but always chalked it up to "my > imagination", no big deal, "I’m sure they will work when I need them". > They did NOT. > Fortunately nobody was hurt, but every time I hear one of the many new > rattles that appeared after the accident (LOTS of front end damage), I > think about it. Now when I need to stop short I ALWAYS assume it > won’t be able to stop in time. > I too can reproduce the symptoms – I’ve even thought about > demonstrating it to the dealer, but I too have rented other explorers > and THEY ALL do it. Some worse than others. I too have asked the > advice of a lawyer, and his response was the same – "why would you > drive a car that you suspected had defective brakes"? > Grrrr…
Response:
I have a 2000 Explorer XLT with a 5.0L V8 & i think the Explorers brake system is Excellent in response time! My dad has an 99 Expedition and his brake response time is MUCH worse. Compared to all the SUV’s i have ever driven the explorer seems very good with break time! I would bring it back to the dealer and get it check if it is still under warentee
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The brakes on my 2001 EB, 5.0V8 are very slow to react when the pedal is > suddenly and rapidly pressed, as in an emergency stop situation. It’s > during the kind of stops where you hear your shoe hit the pedal, and you > strain your leg pushing hard because you need to stop NOW. It’s not brake > fade, it’s a failure for the pads to engage the rotors rapidly and with > force. The pedal feels like it doesn’t want to be pressed down during that > time — like it’s fighting me. No, I don’t get any pulsing at all, as if > the ABS is engaging. The effect occurs at any speed, from 5mph to 65mph > (dry or wet pavement, cold or hot weather etc.). Otherwise, the brakes > behave fine. It’s only when you really need rapid brake engagement that the > system causes a big delay (1/2 second or more???), and then slow application > of the braking force after that. > Try it. I’ll bet your truck does this also. Stomp the pedal, and push > hard. Maybe it’s only on V8s with ABS — that’s what I drive. > This seems very unsafe. Does anyone else notice this, and can it be > fixed??? If it’s a problem with other Explorers, I’d like to know so we can > get attention by the factory, or the Feds, so a "cure" can be found. The > dealer says it’s "normal". Tell that to the person you hit! > RapidRon > —
Response:
I feel soooo vindicated! I own a ‘96 Explorer XLT, a V6. I have unfortunately felt these symptoms – I rear-ended someone on the highway here in Dallas, in October of last year. The behavior is documented in my accident report. I had felt it before the accident too, but always chalked it up to "my imagination", no big deal, "I’m sure they will work when I need them". They did NOT. Fortunately nobody was hurt, but every time I hear one of the many new rattles that appeared after the accident (LOTS of front end damage), I think about it. Now when I need to stop short I ALWAYS assume it won’t be able to stop in time. I too can reproduce the symptoms – I’ve even thought about demonstrating it to the dealer, but I too have rented other explorers and THEY ALL do it. Some worse than others. I too have asked the advice of a lawyer, and his response was the same – "why would you drive a car that you suspected had defective brakes"? Grrrr…
Response:
That is not the first vehicle to have that kind of brake problem. As far back as 1980 the X-cars from GM had the same problem only it was probably worse. The cars were literally impossible to stop from low speeds, such as exiting a parking lot at 5 mph and wanting to stop or slow before going across the sidewalk. Myself and my wife nearly were in accidents with oncoming traffic several times due to this. Dealership did what they could but they can’t change the vehicles design and finally had to adopt the "it’s normal" position. Many people filed complaints with the NTSHA to no avail. My suggestion would be to file a complaint. Just as a side note, I asked an attorney what my position would be if I were in an accident due to it. He said the first thing I’d be asked if I wanted to sue was "If you thought the vehicle was unsafe, why did you keep driving it?" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >This is the second V8 AWD "Explorer" that I’ve owned. The first was a ‘99 >Mountaineer. It had the same problem, but maybe slightly worse, and from >new. I have tested probably close to a dozen similarly equipped Explorers >and Mountaineers, and found that all will demonstrate the problem. If you >own an Explorer, I encourage you to test the brakes the way I have >described. That is, stomp on the pedal hard and fast, and hold the >pressure. Try it at a slow speed first — don’t worry, you wont even lock >the wheels. After you experience the results, you can try it at a faster >speed also. >After you have tested your Explorer this way (or at the dealership, if you >work there), let me know the results. I believe that this is a true "design >flaw" that deserves serious attention. I don’t know any other way to gather >the proof except through this group. Either that, or someone "out there" >may actually know of a fix, so I can get my local dealerships to pay >attention, and fix mine. Since I have demonstrated the problem to my dealer >on other Explorers, they just say that the situation is "normal", so they >won’t even attempt a repair. I think it’s dangerous, and would like to have >a fix found for my truck, and for all of the rest of the Explorers that are >accidents waiting to happen. >Ron
Response:
I have the same issue with my 97 sport. After I replaced the shocks with Monroe Reflex, the braking was actually better. (less nose dive) I am now trying to find Stainless steel braid replacement for the rubber hoses. I believe that some, or a lot of the problem is with the rubber swelling with rapid braking, thus less pressure at the brake cylinder. Goodridge has a kit in their line, but it doesn’t actually come available until next month sometime. The kit is supposed to run about $100.00. When it comes available I’ll buy them and let you know. — Dave Clark 4.0L OHV 97 Explorer Sport K&N FIPK Custom Cat back Exhaust Monroe Reflex
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is the second V8 AWD "Explorer" that I’ve owned. The first was a ‘99 > Mountaineer. It had the same problem, but maybe slightly worse, and from > new. I have tested probably close to a dozen similarly equipped Explorers > and Mountaineers, and found that all will demonstrate the problem. If you > own an Explorer, I encourage you to test the brakes the way I have > described. That is, stomp on the pedal hard and fast, and hold the > pressure. Try it at a slow speed first — don’t worry, you wont even lock > the wheels. After you experience the results, you can try it at a faster > speed also. > After you have tested your Explorer this way (or at the dealership, if you > work there), let me know the results. I believe that this is a true "design > flaw" that deserves serious attention. I don’t know any other way to gather > the proof except through this group. Either that, or someone "out there" > may actually know of a fix, so I can get my local dealerships to pay > attention, and fix mine. Since I have demonstrated the problem to my dealer > on other Explorers, they just say that the situation is "normal", so they > won’t even attempt a repair. I think it’s dangerous, and would like to have > a fix found for my truck, and for all of the rest of the Explorers that are > accidents waiting to happen. > Ron > — > Sounds like a booster problem to me. The hydraulic parts of the system > really can’t be slow to react if they aren’t leaking. If your vehicle is > still under warranty, I think you’d better get down to the dealer and > get it fixed. > Ed > > The brakes on my 2001 EB, 5.0V8 are very slow to react when the pedal is > > suddenly and rapidly pressed, as in an emergency stop situation. It’s > > during the kind of stops where you hear your shoe hit the pedal, and you > > strain your leg pushing hard because you need to stop NOW. It’s not > brake > > fade, it’s a failure for the pads to engage the rotors rapidly and with > > force. The pedal feels like it doesn’t want to be pressed down during > that > > time — like it’s fighting me. No, I don’t get any pulsing at all, as > if > > the ABS is engaging. The effect occurs at any speed, from 5mph to 65mph > > (dry or wet pavement, cold or hot weather etc.). Otherwise, the brakes > > behave fine. It’s only when you really need rapid brake engagement that > the > > system causes a big delay (1/2 second or more???), and then slow > application > > of the braking force after that. > > Try it. I’ll bet your truck does this also. Stomp the pedal, and push > > hard. Maybe it’s only on V8s with ABS — that’s what I drive. > > This seems very unsafe. Does anyone else notice this, and can it be > > fixed??? If it’s a problem with other Explorers, I’d like to know so we > can > > get attention by the factory, or the Feds, so a "cure" can be found. > The > > dealer says it’s "normal". Tell that to the person you hit! > > RapidRon > > —
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The brakes on my 2001 EB, 5.0V8 are very slow to react when the pedal is >suddenly and rapidly pressed, as in an emergency stop situation. It’s >during the kind of stops where you hear your shoe hit the pedal, and you >strain your leg pushing hard because you need to stop NOW. It’s not brake >fade, it’s a failure for the pads to engage the rotors rapidly and with >force. The pedal feels like it doesn’t want to be pressed down during that >time — like it’s fighting me. No, I don’t get any pulsing at all, as if >the ABS is engaging. The effect occurs at any speed, from 5mph to 65mph >(dry or wet pavement, cold or hot weather etc.). Otherwise, the brakes >behave fine. It’s only when you really need rapid brake engagement that the >system causes a big delay (1/2 second or more???), and then slow application >of the braking force after that. >Try it. I’ll bet your truck does this also. Stomp the pedal, and push >hard. Maybe it’s only on V8s with ABS — that’s what I drive. >This seems very unsafe. Does anyone else notice this, and can it be >fixed??? If it’s a problem with other Explorers, I’d like to know so we can >get attention by the factory, or the Feds, so a "cure" can be found. The >dealer says it’s "normal". Tell that to the person you hit! >RapidRon >–
Your booster may be going south. I’d have it checked. Another possibility is the master cylinder. Either way, asking here is only delaying getting the problem fixed, and brake problems are not the ones you want to fool around with.
Response:
This is the second V8 AWD "Explorer" that I’ve owned. The first was a ‘99 Mountaineer. It had the same problem, but maybe slightly worse, and from new. I have tested probably close to a dozen similarly equipped Explorers and Mountaineers, and found that all will demonstrate the problem. If you own an Explorer, I encourage you to test the brakes the way I have described. That is, stomp on the pedal hard and fast, and hold the pressure. Try it at a slow speed first — don’t worry, you wont even lock the wheels. After you experience the results, you can try it at a faster speed also. After you have tested your Explorer this way (or at the dealership, if you work there), let me know the results. I believe that this is a true "design flaw" that deserves serious attention. I don’t know any other way to gather the proof except through this group. Either that, or someone "out there" may actually know of a fix, so I can get my local dealerships to pay attention, and fix mine. Since I have demonstrated the problem to my dealer on other Explorers, they just say that the situation is "normal", so they won’t even attempt a repair. I think it’s dangerous, and would like to have a fix found for my truck, and for all of the rest of the Explorers that are accidents waiting to happen. Ron — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sounds like a booster problem to me. The hydraulic parts of the system > really can’t be slow to react if they aren’t leaking. If your vehicle is > still under warranty, I think you’d better get down to the dealer and > get it fixed. > Ed > The brakes on my 2001 EB, 5.0V8 are very slow to react when the pedal is > suddenly and rapidly pressed, as in an emergency stop situation. It’s > during the kind of stops where you hear your shoe hit the pedal, and you > strain your leg pushing hard because you need to stop NOW. It’s not brake > fade, it’s a failure for the pads to engage the rotors rapidly and with > force. The pedal feels like it doesn’t want to be pressed down during that > time — like it’s fighting me. No, I don’t get any pulsing at all, as if > the ABS is engaging. The effect occurs at any speed, from 5mph to 65mph > (dry or wet pavement, cold or hot weather etc.). Otherwise, the brakes > behave fine. It’s only when you really need rapid brake engagement that the > system causes a big delay (1/2 second or more???), and then slow application > of the braking force after that. > Try it. I’ll bet your truck does this also. Stomp the pedal, and push > hard. Maybe it’s only on V8s with ABS — that’s what I drive. > This seems very unsafe. Does anyone else notice this, and can it be > fixed??? If it’s a problem with other Explorers, I’d like to know so we can > get attention by the factory, or the Feds, so a "cure" can be found. The > dealer says it’s "normal". Tell that to the person you hit! > RapidRon > —
Response:
> I don’t know that’s it.
I don’t understand your meaning. Did youmean you know it’s not the booster? Ed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My 96XLT V8-AWD does the EXACT same thing. > Emergency stops are very harrowing. I usually try to steer to avoid > rather than stomping the brakes because I don’t trust them. And like Ron > wrote, during normal stops, the brakes work just fine. And this is after > they are good and warm or cold – same thing. > Zammer > Sounds like a booster problem to me. The hydraulic parts of the system > really can’t be slow to react if they aren’t leaking. If your vehicle > is still under warranty, I think you’d better get down to the dealer > and get it fixed. > Ed >> The brakes on my 2001 EB, 5.0V8 are very slow to react when the pedal >> is suddenly and rapidly pressed, as in an emergency stop situation. >> It’s during the kind of stops where you hear your shoe hit the pedal, >> and you strain your leg pushing hard because you need to stop NOW. >> It’s not brake fade, it’s a failure for the pads to engage the rotors >> rapidly and with force. The pedal feels like it doesn’t want to be >> pressed down during that time — like it’s fighting me. No, I don’t >> get any pulsing at all, as if the ABS is engaging. The effect occurs >> at any speed, from 5mph to 65mph (dry or wet pavement, cold or hot >> weather etc.). Otherwise, the brakes behave fine. It’s only when >> you really need rapid brake engagement that the system causes a big >> delay (1/2 second or more???), and then slow application of the >> braking force after that. >> Try it. I’ll bet your truck does this also. Stomp the pedal, and >> push hard. Maybe it’s only on V8s with ABS — that’s what I drive. >> This seems very unsafe. Does anyone else notice this, and can it be >> fixed??? If it’s a problem with other Explorers, I’d like to know so >> we can get attention by the factory, or the Feds, so a "cure" can be >> found. The dealer says it’s "normal". Tell that to the person you >> hit! >> RapidRon >> —
Response:
I don’t know that’s it. My 96XLT V8-AWD does the EXACT same thing. Emergency stops are very harrowing. I usually try to steer to avoid rather than stomping the brakes because I don’t trust them. And like Ron wrote, during normal stops, the brakes work just fine. And this is after they are good and warm or cold – same thing. Zammer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sounds like a booster problem to me. The hydraulic parts of the system > really can’t be slow to react if they aren’t leaking. If your vehicle > is still under warranty, I think you’d better get down to the dealer > and get it fixed. > Ed > The brakes on my 2001 EB, 5.0V8 are very slow to react when the pedal > is suddenly and rapidly pressed, as in an emergency stop situation. > It’s during the kind of stops where you hear your shoe hit the pedal, > and you strain your leg pushing hard because you need to stop NOW. > It’s not brake fade, it’s a failure for the pads to engage the rotors > rapidly and with force. The pedal feels like it doesn’t want to be > pressed down during that time — like it’s fighting me. No, I don’t > get any pulsing at all, as if the ABS is engaging. The effect occurs > at any speed, from 5mph to 65mph (dry or wet pavement, cold or hot > weather etc.). Otherwise, the brakes behave fine. It’s only when > you really need rapid brake engagement that the system causes a big > delay (1/2 second or more???), and then slow application of the > braking force after that. > Try it. I’ll bet your truck does this also. Stomp the pedal, and > push hard. Maybe it’s only on V8s with ABS — that’s what I drive. > This seems very unsafe. Does anyone else notice this, and can it be > fixed??? If it’s a problem with other Explorers, I’d like to know so > we can get attention by the factory, or the Feds, so a "cure" can be > found. The dealer says it’s "normal". Tell that to the person you > hit! > RapidRon > —
Response:
Sounds like a booster problem to me. The hydraulic parts of the system really can’t be slow to react if they aren’t leaking. If your vehicle is still under warranty, I think you’d better get down to the dealer and get it fixed. Ed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The brakes on my 2001 EB, 5.0V8 are very slow to react when the pedal is > suddenly and rapidly pressed, as in an emergency stop situation. It’s > during the kind of stops where you hear your shoe hit the pedal, and you > strain your leg pushing hard because you need to stop NOW. It’s not brake > fade, it’s a failure for the pads to engage the rotors rapidly and with > force. The pedal feels like it doesn’t want to be pressed down during that > time — like it’s fighting me. No, I don’t get any pulsing at all, as if > the ABS is engaging. The effect occurs at any speed, from 5mph to 65mph > (dry or wet pavement, cold or hot weather etc.). Otherwise, the brakes > behave fine. It’s only when you really need rapid brake engagement that the > system causes a big delay (1/2 second or more???), and then slow application > of the braking force after that. > Try it. I’ll bet your truck does this also. Stomp the pedal, and push > hard. Maybe it’s only on V8s with ABS — that’s what I drive. > This seems very unsafe. Does anyone else notice this, and can it be > fixed??? If it’s a problem with other Explorers, I’d like to know so we can > get attention by the factory, or the Feds, so a "cure" can be found. The > dealer says it’s "normal". Tell that to the person you hit! > RapidRon > —
Response:
The brakes on my 2001 EB, 5.0V8 are very slow to react when the pedal is suddenly and rapidly pressed, as in an emergency stop situation. It’s during the kind of stops where you hear your shoe hit the pedal, and you strain your leg pushing hard because you need to stop NOW. It’s not brake fade, it’s a failure for the pads to engage the rotors rapidly and with force. The pedal feels like it doesn’t want to be pressed down during that time — like it’s fighting me. No, I don’t get any pulsing at all, as if the ABS is engaging. The effect occurs at any speed, from 5mph to 65mph (dry or wet pavement, cold or hot weather etc.). Otherwise, the brakes behave fine. It’s only when you really need rapid brake engagement that the system causes a big delay (1/2 second or more???), and then slow application of the braking force after that. Try it. I’ll bet your truck does this also. Stomp the pedal, and push hard. Maybe it’s only on V8s with ABS — that’s what I drive. This seems very unsafe. Does anyone else notice this, and can it be fixed??? If it’s a problem with other Explorers, I’d like to know so we can get attention by the factory, or the Feds, so a "cure" can be found. The dealer says it’s "normal". Tell that to the person you hit! RapidRon —
Response:
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